Q Can you give us your full legal name for the record?
A Heather Christine Hargett.

Q And, Heather, have you ever given a deposition before?
A No.

Q Let me give you a couple little ground rules that will make things go a little easier. First and foremost, Kelly is our court reporter, and Kelly cannot take down the uh-huhs and the uh-uhs and things of that sort. So everything has to be answered audibly. We'll get casual as we go forward. It'll happen. She'll either stare you down, or I will, and shake our heads to try to remind you to answer audibly. It's not a marathon. If you need to take a break --
A Okay --

Q -- if you need to use the restroom, get a drink, not a problem. We have a lot of ground to cover with you today.
A Okay.

Q Also, today -- you are, in essence, today, here in front of a jury. This will be read to a jury. Therefore, you are under the penalty of perjury --
A Okay.

Q -- which means that you are expected to give the truth and nothing but the truth, or you'll be exposed to potential criminal sanctions. Now, if you don't remember something, and you tell me you don't remember, as long as that's honest, that's fine.
A Okay.

Q If we go down a way and you realize, Oh, my God, I just told you something different or I need to correct it --
A Okay.

Q -- that's fine. Human nature will tell --
A Okay.

Q -- that people want to be married to an answer.
A Right.

Q So, therefore, if you want to change it, it's not a problem.
A Okay.

Q Also, you will anticipate a lot of my questions today. But it's most important that you et me finish my question, for Kelly to write it down.
A Okay.

Q Pause a second and then give an answer.
A Okay.

Q Now, if you could, for me, give me your date of birth.
A 6/21/77.

Q And your social security number?
A How is that relevant?

Q It's relevant in all matters, social security number, so we can find you or locate you at a later time.
A ***-**-****

Q And where are you currently residing?
A ** Omited by Site admin **

Q And is this a place you rent or own?
A Rent.

Q And does anybody live there with you?
A Right now, no.

Q Okay. Where did you -- how long have you been at the St. Andrews Place?
A Since December 20 -- 22nd, something like that.

Q Of 2006?
A Yes.

Q And where did you reside before the St. Andrews location?
A ** Omited by Site admin **

Q And did you rent or own this location?
A Rent.

Q And who owns this facility here?
A Buttonwood Street, I think, South, LLC.

Q And is that Shoshana Gordon's place?
A It's her parents' place.

Q How long did you reside there?
A From April of '06 to December 20-something. I don't know if it was the 20th, 21st, 22nd.

Q Prior to the Belmont location, where were you living?
A Appaloosa Trail. I don't know the exact number.

Q And was that a residence?
A I'm sorry. Draft Horse Lane off of Appaloosa.

Q And was that a rental or did you own it?
A Rental.

Q And how long did you live there?
A Two to three months. I'd have to look.

Q Okay. And who lived with you at that location?
A No one.

Q Okay. Prior to Draft Horse?
A My permanent residence, Jacksonville, North Carolina.

Q And what is the actual address?
A ** Omited by Site admin **

Q And is this where your mother lives?
A Yes.

Q And what is your mother's name?
A Susan.

Q Last name?
A Hargett.

Q And how long have you-all been at that location?
A Since March of '05.

Q And what does your mother do for work?
A She doesn't. She's retired.

Q Retired from what line of work?
A The school system.

Q Was she a school teacher?
A No. Secretary.

Q Okay. And I'm trying to go back long enough that -- for ten years of your living arrangements.
A ** Omited by Site admin **

Q And how long were you there?
A From 1988 until they sold the house.

Q '05?
A Yeah.

Q How is it that you ended up next door to each other?
A They sold the house and rented the house across the street, because the house wasn't on the market and somebody offered them money for it. So they sold it. They're building.

Q And where are they building? What city?
A Same city, Jacksonville.

Q And when you say, "they," who is they?
A My father.

Q And what is your father's name?
A Fred.

Q And what does he do for work?
A He sells cars.

Q And that's there in Jacksonville, North Carolina?
A Yep.

Q Okay. Do you have any brothers and sisters?
A Yes. I have a brother.

Q And what is his name?
A Freddie.

Q I could probably guess that. And where does he live?
A Jacksonville.

Q North Carolina?
A Yep.

Q And how old is he?
A Thirty-two.

Q Okay. Those are the kind of things we don't hold you to gospel about.
A Yeah. I'm like, uh.

Q Any other brothers or sisters?
A Nope.

Q Okay. Tell me where you graduated from high school.
A Jacksonville.

Q Was it Jacksonville High School?
A Yep.

Q And what year did you graduate?
A '95.

Q Did you do any graduate work or any college?
A Yes. I went to college at UNC at Chapel Hill.

Q And how long were you there?
A On and off, for six or seven years. I kept coming down here for the winter, so --

Q Did you ever obtain a degree?
A No.

Q How short were you from your degree?
A Less than a year.

Q And what were you studying --
A Math.

Q -- at Chapel Hill?
A Math major and chemistry minor.

Q Have you done any other type of college or trade school? And what I mean by that is, like cosmetology or any type of certificates or anything?
A No.

Q When did you last attend Chapel Hill? What year?
A Hold on. I think 2002.

Q Okay.
A Maybe 2001. I'm not positive. I'd have to look.

Q Do you have any plans, as you sit here today, to go back and obtain your degree?
A Possibly. The sky's the limit.

Q Let's talk a little bit about your time in the horse industry. When did you first get introduced to horses?
A Nine years old.

Q And what type of horses and training did you have when you were nine years old?
A I took camps and riding lessons.

Q And was that in Jacksonville --
A Yes.

Q -- North Carolina?
A Yes.

Q You have to wait for me to finish.
A Sorry.

Q That's all right. It's for our court reporter here. She'll be throwing things at us momentarily, if we do that. And how long did you -- I take it, camps and things of that sort. Was it Western? English?.
A English.

Q When did you -- what age were you when you entered your first competition?
A Ten.

Q And what type of competition was that?
A A local horse show.

Q What type of classes did you do?
A Everything that was offered to a ten-year-old kid: Jumping, equitation, hunters.

Q Was it short stirrup? Was it local hunters?
A It was local hunters. I don't remember what divisions I showed at when I was ten.

Q And what trainer did you have back then?
A Annie Moore.

Q Spell the name.
A Annie Moore, M-O-O-R-E.

Q Okay. And how long were you with Annie?
A Until I was 18. She took me to the McClay Finals.

Q What year did you do the McClay Finals?
A '95.

Q Did you do them at New York, or you did the local level?
A No. I did them at New York. Made the first cut. Made it to the top 25.

Q Okay. Did you own any horses that you did the junior hunters with?
A No. I always catch rode everyone else's horses.

Q So up until the time you were 18, you never owned a horse of your own?
A My parents bought me a pony when I was 11. We sold it, I think, when I was 14. But, no, mostly all of my showing was done on other people's horses. I was always provided horses to show.

Q And were you a working student?
A Yeah, actually. I worked at the barn from the time I was 13 until the day I left.

Q What was the name of Ms. Moore's farm?
A Moore Stables.

Q And do you still keep in contact with Annie?
A No.

Q And why is that?
A Just over the years, just lost contact.

Q Okay.
A I did up until about two or three years ago.

Q Now, other than the McClay Finals, what other type of accomplishments did you achieve?
A I competed at the Washington --

Q You have to let me finish.
A Sorry.

Q That's okay. Other than the McClay Finals, what other accomplishments did you obtain during your junior years that we would consider would be notable?
A I qualified and went to the Washington International Horse Show for the jumpers.

Q In what division?
A The children's/adult jumpers.

Q And what year was that?
A '97 or '98. I'm not sure. In '92, I was 4-H district, state and regional champion. In '93, the same. '94, the same. In '92, for the EHA hunter circuit, I was children's hunter champion, open horse champion, open equitation champion on the flat, open equitation champion over the fences.

Q And EHA is known as?
A Eastern Hunter Association. And that would have applied for the same years '92, '93 and '94.

Q The Eastern Hunter Association is comprised of what area?
A Eastern North Carolina. Anybody. I was third in, I believe, the children's hunters in 1994 or '95 for all of North Carolina, the NCHJA.

Q I'm sorry. That was the children's hunter or children's jumper?
A I think children's hunter. I competed nationally, won classes all over the country.

Q When you say you "competed nationally," who were you competing with on the national level in your junior years? Was that with Ms. Moore?
A Yes. In my junior years, with Annie Moore.

Q When you say that, was that just North Carolina or --
A No. We went to Michigan and horse-showed. We went to Georgia and horse-showed. We went to South Carolina. We went to Virginia.

Q And these were all times that you would have catch rode?
A Yes.

Q What type of classes were you catch riding in?
A Junior hunters, children's/adult jumpers, equitation, medals, McClays, whatever. I pretty much always had at least four horses to ride at every horse show.

Q And when you left Ms. Moore, where did you go for your horse career?
A I went to Southern Pines.

Q And who did you affiliate with at Southern Pines?
A Vicky Hanson. And then Brian Lenehan.

Q How long were you with Vicky?
A Only like two months.

Q And what was your role at Vicky's place?
A Working student.

Q Did you ever show when you were with Ms. Hanson?
A No. That's why I left. She didn't horse show.

Q And how about with Brian, how long were you with Brian?
A Three months, four months. Just while I did a semester of school.

Q And were you a working student with him as well?
A Yes.

Q And what was your role there? What type of things did you do for Brian?
A Just rode. Rode and took care of the horses.

Q And did you do any shows with Brian?
A No.

Q Okay.
A Oh. I take that back. Yes. Probably one or two local horse shows.

Q And then where did you go after you left Brian?
A I went to school to Chapel Hill. My riding, I went to Harold Chopping.

Q And how long were you with Mr. Chopping?
A Until 2000.

Q So that would have been about three years?
A Three or four years, yeah.

Q Okay. And what did you do for Mr. Chopping?
A I managed his barn of 25 horses, took care of Grand Prix horses. I was a customer as well. I always had a horse there for sale.

Q And what was the name of Harold's barn?
A Solo, Incorporated.

Q Solo, Incorporated.
A Rougemont, R-O-U-G-E-M-O-N-T, North Carolina.

Q Okay. And when you said you were always a customer with him, how did that -- explain what you mean by that.
A I always had a horse in his care that I paid board on that we had to sell.

Q How many horses did you sell when you were at Harold Chopping that you were -- that were directly related to your sales?
A I'd have to look, truthfully. It's been so long.

Q Give me an estimate. More than five? Less than five?
A More than five.

Q More or less than ten?
A Less than ten.

Q What were the price ranges of the horses that you sold when you were with Harold Chopping, that were affiliated to your --
A Anywhere from 20,000 to 40,000.

Q Now, these are horses that you owned yourself and he was just assisting you as --
A No. Those were horses that people sent to me to sell and/or I owned myself.

Q What was the first horse that you ever owned, that you say, you know, when -- other than the pony, that you actually owned in your adult years?
A Dylan.

Q And what type of horse was Dylan?
A Trakehner cross, I think.

Q And how long did you have Dylan?
A Not even a year.

Q And who bought Dylan from you?
A Jerry Stevenson.

Q And how much did you sell Dylan for?
A $7,500.

Q And what was the last horse that you had with Harold Chopping that you sold?
A I have no idea.

Q What -- who was sending you horses to sell when you were at Harold Chopping?
A Nancy Hoffman.

Q Who else?
A I'd have to look. She was the one that comes to the top of my mind.

Q And where is Nancy located?
A I have no idea anymore. I haven't talked to her in ten years. She was in Southern Pines, South Carolina.

Q And was she a trainer or --
A She's a trainer.

Q And why would she send the horses to you as opposed to selling them herself?
A Because I was good at what I did. I rode well and the horses would be well represented.

Q Did you show when you were with Harold?
A Yes.

Q And what type of classes were you showing when you were with Harold?
A The low amateur jumpers, the high amateur jumpers, amateur hunters. We showed in Canada. We went all over.

Q How is it that you were buying and selling horses and still showing in the amateurs?
A Probably shouldn't have. The rules were not as strict as they are now. I wasn't getting paid to ride, and I wasn't getting paid to teach. And it used to be those were the only stipulations.

Q That's what you believe the rules to be?
A Ten years ago.

Q When did you leave Harold's?
A In 2000. The end of 2000.

Q Where did you go after you left Harold?
A Beaver River Farm.

Q And who had Beaver River Farm?
A Danny Robertshaw.

Q And how long were you with Danny Robertshaw?
A Year and a half.

Q And what did you do for him?
A Managed their farm, had two sale horses, organized the customers, took care of the office, did everything, ran the barn.

Q You were, effectively, the barn manager?
A Yes. I oversaw the care of all the horses and the staff.

Q And did you do actual showing with Danny?
A Yes.

Q And I mean, where you entered into the horse show, not just where you went to the horse shows with them?
A No. I was entered in the horse shows.

Q And what horse shows did you do with Mr. Robertshaw?
A We did Palm Beach. We did Kentucky. We did Virginia. We did Blowing Rock; Georgia. We were all over. We did Harrisburg; Washington.

Q When I say -- and you're saying you entered --
A I didn't enter. I did not -- I personally did not go to Harrisburg and Washington, but I took a horse to Harrisburg and Washington for them. But the rest, yes. We horse showed in North Carolina.

Q What --
A Virginia.

Q -- horse were you showing during that time?
A Just Kidding.

Q And what type of horse was Just Kidding?
A Selle Francais.

Q And what type of classes were you doing with Just Kidding?
A Younger amateurs and the adults, the first year. The younger amateurs, the second. And a horse called Duval.

Q Okay.
A He did the baby greens the first year and the adults the second year.

Q Why were you showing these horses, as opposed to Danny Robertshaw?
A Because they were for me to show. That's what they were bought for.

Q And who bought them?
A Jerry Stevenson bought Just Kidding. Jerry Stevenson and Bill Hargett bought Duval.

Q Who is Bill Hargett?
A My uncle.

Q So your uncle invested in some horses with you?
A Yes.

Q And is he still invested in horses with you?
A No.

Q When did he stop becoming invested in horses with you?
A Last summer.

Q '06?
A Yes.

Q What was the last horse that you had with --
A Duval.

Q You have to let me finish. What was the last horse that you had with Mr. Hargett?
A Duval.

Q Okay. And when did you sell Duval?
A I didn't sell Duval. Jerry Stevenson bought him out for his daughter to ride the horse.

Q And how much did Jerry Stevenson buy him out for?
A I don't know. I was not involved in the deal.

Q What other horses did your uncle invest in, other than Duval, with you?
A Coco Loco.

Q And when did you get rid of Coco Loco?
A June of '05.

Q And how much money did you make your uncle on that investment?
A I don't know. I wasn't involved in the sale. Again, he was bought out for somebody else to keep the horse. They did not want to sell the horses. They still own them.

Q And who was the owner of Coco Loco, the other owner?
A Casey Millis.

Q Spell the last name?
A M-I-L-L-I-S.

Q And where is Casey Millis now?
A I don't know. I don't talk to her.

Q Where was she at the time that you were riding Coco Loco?
A When she bought Coco Loco, she was in Camden, South Carolina.

Q What happened to Just Kidding?
A He's still owned by Jerry Stevenson.

Q And where is Jerry Stevenson now?
A Jacksonville, North Carolina.

Q And who is Jerry Stevenson to you?
A Now, no one.

Q Was it somebody who was a relative of yours?
A No.

Q Just a person who owned horses?
A It was personal.

Q A boyfriend, significant other?
A It was personal. I'm going to leave it at that.

Q I'm just trying to figure out where your relationship was.
A It was personal.

Q It was something personal. Okay. And I take it you-all separated your personal situation?
A Yes.

Q Okay. And when was that?
A June of '05.

Q And how long were you with Mr. Stevenson?
A From '01 up until then.

Q And you said he had a daughter that rode?
A Yes.

Q And how old was the daughter that rode when you left in '05?
A She's in college; 18, 19, something like that.

Q And who was her trainer?
A Annie Moore.

Q Other than Just Kidding and Duval, what other horses did Jerry Stevenson own that he had you ride or --
A Just those three for me.

Q So it was Just Kidding, Duval -- and who was the other horse?
A Coco Loco.

Q I take it you haven't talked to Mr. Stevenson since June of '05?
A No.

Q Am I correct?
A No.

Q Am I correct?
A Yes, you're correct. No, I do not speak with him.

Q You were telling me that you were with Danny Robertshaw. So that would have taken you through about, what, June of '05?
A No.

Q Tell me when you left Danny's.
A I told you I was with Danny Robertshaw for a year and a half.

Q Tell me when you would have left Danny's?
A May of '02, I think.

Q And what was the reason for the parting of the ways from Mr. Robertshaw?
A Went back to school.

Q Okay. And then, as far as your horse career goes, where did you end up next?
A Harold trained me again.

Q And when you said he trained you again, was that more of where you were a client versus a --
A Yes. I did not work.

Q You have to let me finish. It's really important for her.
A Okay.

Q You were a client as opposed to a working student at that time?
A Yes.

Q And what horses did you have with Harold when you were now on the client side?
A Coco Loco.

Q And what years were you with him during that time?
A Just six months, June of '02 to November 4 of '02. He took a riding job in Canada, so --

Q And what type of classes were you doing with Coco Loco at that time?
A Low amateurs.

Q During the time that you were at Danny Robertshaw's farm, did you actually -- or were you actually involved in the sale of any horses? And I'm not talking about where you rode them and they got sold --
A Yes.

Q -- but where you actually stood there and did the deals.
A Not with Danny and Ron, because they don't sell horses. But, yes, I always orchestrated my own deals on the side.

Q What horses did you sell when you were at Danny Robertshaw's?
A Miscellaneous horses. I'd have to get you a list. There's no way I can possibly come up with a list right now.

Q Was this more than five --
A Yes.

Q -- less than ten again?
A More than ten.

Q More than ten when you were at Danny's. What trainers were you selling horses to when you were at Danny's?
A Annie Moore -- again, I'd have to get you a list.

Q Okay. How --
A Not people I typically deal with now, because they were lower-end horses. That's why I don't --

Q What type of range of horses were you selling when you were at Danny's?
A Mostly thoroughbreds.

Q When I say, "range," I mean price range.
A Up to 35- to $50,000.

Q Now, when you were selling these horses when you were at Danny Robertshaw's, did it have any affiliation with his farm?
A No.

Q Was he approving of the fact that you were selling horses during the time you were with him?
A No. Again, they are not a sales barn.

Q I understand that. But obviously you were working with them, correct?
A Yes.

Q And during the time that you were managing their farm, you were also doing sales on the side?
A Yes.

Q And were they accepting of the fact that you were selling horses while you were employed with them?
A Yes. It didn't affect their business. As long as I wasn't selling to their customers.

Q Now, when you were selling these horses when you were with Danny Robertshaw and with Harold Chopping, were you reporting the sales of those horses on your IRS forms?
A No.

Q And why not?
A Most of the time, I didn't get paid direct. I would roll the money into another horse. And I was a student. I didn't really have actual income.

Q What type of commissions were you accepting on these horses, back when you were selling with Harold Chopping and Danny Robertshaw?
A I don't understand the question.

Q These horses -- did you own these horses?
A No.

Q Okay. So you were the sales agent --
A Yes.

Q -- for these horses? How much of a commission were you taking on the sale of these horses over the purchase -- over the sale price?
A Just depended on the deal.

Q Were you --
A It varied.

Q Were you doing a standard 10 percent, 15 percent, 20 percent, or were you doing it where the owner would ask for X amount of dollars and you would price it and take the difference?
A Depended on if I was paying the expenses on the horses. Some of both. If I paid the expenses on the horse, the deals were structured differently. If they were consignment, I got a percentage of the sale plus my expenses. If they were strictly consignment, where the people were paying the bills, I just got a percentage. And a lot of times, I didn't care for the horses. I just found horses for other people, and, therefore, I would get a commission.

Q And if -- let's talk about the different scenarios that you had.
A Okay.

Q When you would simply be somebody who would be a point person; in other words, somebody told you, this is a horse we're looking for, you found that horse, but you didn't necessarily go there and stand there for the sale of it, rather you gave the lead --
A I always went for the sale.

Q Okay. There was never a time when you took a commission where you just referred somebody to a horse?
A No.

Q Okay. So we'll mark that off. Okay. When you would introduce somebody to a horse, you would have already gone out and looked at the horse first to be sure it was what they were working for?
A Yes.

Q And then you would arrange for the people to meet with you there at the facility for the horse to be shown to them?
A Yes.

Q And from that point, how would you allow the deal to go? Would they do the purchase through you, or would that go through the person who had the horse?
A Depended on the deal. People have preferences about that.

Q Okay. And if it was just somebody that you took out there and they ended up buying the horse, what type of percentage would you receive, if you had nothing other than just those -- that involvement?
A Generally 10 percent. It was 10 years ago.

Q Okay. Now, if you went out there and you had found a horse and you put some time and expenses into the horse, how would that deal be done?
A For example, I took a horse on consignment. The girl said she for sure wanted $20,000. If the horse got sold for $20,000, I got 10 percent.

Q Okay.
A If the horse got sold for $30,000, I got 15 percent. If the horse got sold for more than $30,000, I got half of the profit plus my 10 percent commission.

Q Okay.
A So each deal was different, depending on the person and the situation. .

Q Okay. Did you ever suffer any losses on horses that you took in on either consignment or sales?
A Oh, yes. That's why I don't do consignment anymore.

Q And what type of losses would you have suffered on consignment situations?
A People lying about horses passing the vet. Said that they had had perfect x-rays. You'd get your job done, send them to the vet, they have the worst x-rays that New Bolton Center has ever seen, that they now use as educational x-rays, after the horse had run up a $14,000 bill, going to horse shows and traveling all around the country. So, yes, I don't do consignment anymore.

Q Now, during this time when you were doing consignment cases, you were fronting the money for these horses?
A Yes.

Q How were you affording to do that?
A Just made money braiding, whatever.

Q Okay.
A I've always worked.

Q The time that you were doing braiding and other income, were you reporting that on your IRS taxes?
A No. I would say partial. I wouldn't say none at all. But, yes, partial. If I had a W-2 form, no.

Q Okay. Now, you were telling me about the different situations where you had consignments. Now, I presume, under consignment situations where -- what do you call -- what does Heather Hargett call a deal where the people are actually paying the expenses but you're taking the horse on?
A Then I just get straight 10 percent. If they're paying the bills, I get straight 10 percent. Very clear, cut and dry. That would be my preference.

Q Where did you come up with the name Heather Williams? How is that affiliated with you?
A Personal reasons.

Q Are you legally registered as Heather Williams?
A In the process. I tried to do the paperwork myself online this summer and didn't realize that you had to have fingerprints and all. So I consulted an attorney and asked her to help me with that, once I realized the name change was not effective.

Q And why did you want to do a name change?
A Personal reasons. Quite frankly, none of your business.

Q I get the right to ask.
A Well, it's personal reasons.

Q Okay. Let me explain, for the judge, who will read this transcript. You have arranged with my client --
A Uh-huh.

Q -- and done certain deals, and you have registered yourself as Heather Williams.
A Not with your client.

Q Let me finish, please. You have registered as Heather Williams with Palm Beach Equine Clinic, as the owner of the horses that my client technically owns, as -- and I have it here with me, if you want to look at what you signed as an owner, as Heather Williams. So, therefore, I have the right to ask you questions involving Heather Williams. If I have to come back and ask you the questions again, which is your right, you will be sanctioned and have to pay for all this deposition and go through this again. So I'm going to ask you to reconsider telling me why you --
A Personal reasons.

Q Okay. But I need to know why personal. Is it a situation where somebody has stalked you --
A Yes.

Q -- and you're afraid for your life? Anything like that? That's why I'm asking you.
A Yes. Personal reasons. I don't know how to be more clear than that.

Q Well, that's not clear. Personal reasons -- you're not running from the law?
A No.

Q You haven't been in a crime that you don't --
A No.

Q -- that you're trying to hide from?
A My attorney would not allow me to do a name change. It is illegal to do it for those reasons.

Q I'm asking you all the different ways it could possibly be, so --
A I have a significant other --

Q Okay.
A -- that maybe we have some different religious beliefs, and I'm changing my name. And, yes, they're for personal reasons. I have people that remain nameless, because I'm not allowed to discuss, that, yes, have stalked me.

Q Okay. So you're changing your name because of something that is going on in your life that you need to have a different name?
A Personal reasons. I would like to change my name to Williams.

Q Okay. Now, have you ever been married?
A In the U.S., no.

Q You've been married outside of the United States?
A Not under U.S. law, no.

Q Okay. I understand that. But my question is: Have you ever been married, whether it's been in --
A No.

Q -- Ethiopia or otherwise?
A Technically, no.

Q Obviously, you have some form of a bond with somebody?
A Yes.

Q What type of bond was this?
A Again, he's my significant other. Doesn't believe in marriage all the time, the traditional marriage.

Q Okay. And what is his name?
A Jacob.

Q And what is his last name?
A Williams.

Q And where does he reside?
A Texas.

Q Texas. And how long have you been with Jacob?
A Two years.

Q And how often do you go see Jacob?
A It varies. As often as possible. He comes here more than I go there.

Q That was going to be my next question. And how often does he come visit you here?
A As often as possible.

Q Once or twice a month?
A At least twice a month.

Q Okay. And what does Jacob do for work? What is his occupation?
A He doesn't work.

Q Okay. Is he retired or just unemployed?
A No. Family business.

Q Okay. And what type of family business?
A I don't ask. I don't know.

Q Have you met his family?
A No.

Q And how old is Jacob?
A Thirty-six.

Q And does Jacob -- has he invested in any horses with you?
A No. Not at this point.

Q So you consider yourself in a pseudo-married relationship with Jacob, other than not having the formal paper?
A Yes.

Q And you said that his -- what religion is he that his beliefs don't afford to marriage?
A I'm not at liberty to discuss.

Q Has Mr. Jacobs [sic] ever provided any assistance with you paying your expenses --
A No.

Q -- for the horses?
A Don't mix business and personal. I tried that once.

Q When he comes here to visit with you, does he stay with you or does he stay elsewhere?
A He stays with me.

Q Has he ever traveled with you on any type of horse ventures or horse deals --
A No.

Q -- where you would purchase horses?
A No. I make a point to keep the two separate.

Q He's never purchased any horses for you?
A (Shake in the negative.)

Q Does he have any knowledge at all of horses?
A Nope.

Q All right. And you have no children, correct?
A No.

Q And you said an attorney is assisting you with the name change.
A Yes.

Q And is that taking place in Palm Beach County?
A Yes.

Q When you obtain your name change, how will you be referring to yourself out in the horse community?
A Heather Williams.

Q Have you considered whether or not people would know who you are with your name of Heather Hargett versus Heather Williams, making the connection?
A Of course, people know me by face.

Q Now, tell me -- we were talking about your time with Danny. And then you went back to Harold for a little while. And you said you were with him about six months.
A Uh-huh.

Q And who did you work with after you left Harold's?
A Todd Minikus.

Q And how long were you with Todd?
A Up until now.

Q When you say, "up until now," what time frame?
A Any time I have him -- from December of '02 to present.

Q Okay. And in what capacity does Todd help you now?
A He's my trainer.

Q When is the last time that you entered a competition where you rode?
A Three weeks ago, four weeks ago.

Q And what horse show was that?
A Littlewood.

Q And what horse did you show at Littlewood? .
A Chaplain.

Q And what classes did you do?
A Baby green hunter.

Q And how did he do?
A It was his first horse show. He was very good.

Q Did he get any ribbons?
A No. Wasn't expected to. Never been off the property.

Q And who owns Chaplain.
A Savmar, LLC.

Q Spell the name.
A S-A-V-M-A-R.

Q Okay. And who is the person behind Savmar, LLC?
A I think that's irrelevant. I object to the question.

Q Well, it is relevant, and we have the right to discover that information.
A That's fine.

Q What name did you put --
A Savmar, LLC was the owner.

Q And you signed as the trainer?
A Yes.

Q Okay. Is Savmar, LLC a licensed corporation here in Florida?
A I have no idea where it's licensed. I'm not privy to that information.

Q Is that who you bill for your monthly expenses, Savmar?
A I don't bill them for monthly expenses at this time.

Q How did you arrange the payment for the horse show?
A I believe they took care of the bill in the horse show office.

Q Is that horse in your care and custody?
A No.

Q Where is it now?
A I don't know.

Q How long had it been in your possession when you did the baby green hunters?
A Five months.

Q And what breed is Chaplain?
A Westfalen.

Q Did you sell the horse after this horse show?
A No.

Q Was it for sale? I guess that was probably a better question. Was it for sale at that horse show?
A No.

Q When did it leave your care, custody and control?
A After the horse show.

Q And why is that?
A Because of Marc Buck.

Q Okay. And how -- what relation to Marc Buck was the reason?
A This lawsuit. Too many complications.

Q Such as what? What did they explain to you? I presume they gave you a reason.
A No. It was really kind of a mutual thing. Until this was resolved, I don't want the horse involved.

Q So what trainer has that horse now?
A I do not know. I did not ask.

Q Okay. He's no longer at your facility?
A No.

Q Is that correct?
A Yes, that's correct.

Q Okay. Where was Chaplain purchased from?
A I think -- I object. I'm not answering that. It's not involved. It has nothing to do with Marc Buck and this lawsuit.

Q Well, it does.
A It does not.

Q It goes to sales. We will mark this question.
A Fine.

Q Are you going to take this position throughout the day?
A It depends on the question. If there's things that are unrelated to Flemmingh and Silco and Marc Buck, yes, there's -- that's just -- it doesn't pertain.

Q Okay. Well, what we're going to do --
A I, unfortunately, have to continue to run a business when this is all done, and I'm not going to have you guys run amuck in everything that I do. I understand we have to deal with this, and that's fine. But things that pertain to Flemmingh and Silco are relevant questions.

Q MS. NAVIN: What we're going to do is we're going to take a break. I'm going to go have my secretary call the judge and I'm going to ask the judge to rule on your objection.
A THE WITNESS: Okay.

QMS. NAVIN: Because we are not going to continue to play back and forth all day. It's far too expensive for this lady to be here and Marc to have a lawyer. So bear with me a minute, and I'm going to go get the judge's number. (Whereupon a break was taken from 10:10 to 10:13 a.m.)
A

Q All right. The judge is in a hearing. He will call in momentarily. So until he gets the opportunity to do so, we'll keep going. We'll mark the areas where you don't want to answer and we'll address that with him.
A And if I need to, I will leave and consult with an attorney, and we'll do this with an attorney present, because I'm uncomfortable with some of the questions you're asking me.

Q Well, you're here pro se. That was your choice.
A But I may change that. I'm allowed to hire an attorney at any given point in time.

Q You are absolutely welcome to do that, but you're here pro se, and we're going to go forward with the deposition. Now, did you have any ownership in Chaplain?
ANo.

Q Did you purchase Chaplain from Newman Equestrian?
A Yes.

Q Was Chaplain part of the purchase when you were buying horses in August of 2006, which included Flemmingh and Silco?
A He was the third horse purchased.

Q And was Chaplain known by another name when he was with Mr. Newman?
A Yes.

Q And what was his name?
A Travis.

Q Okay. And what was his purchase price from Newman Equestrian?
A 85,000.

Q What type of commission did you receive from that sale?
A 15,000.

Q When you purchased Travis from Newman Equestrian for this Savmar, LLC group, were they aware that they were paying you a commission at that time?
A Yes. As I tell all of my investors, I only get paid at the time of the sales. That is how I make a living. That is abundantly clear from the get-go.

Q And when you say, "at the time of the sales," you're talking about --
A Going in or coming out.

Q You have to let me finish. When you're talking about sales, are you talking about both on the coming in of the investment as well as outside --
A Yes. All sales I get a commission.

Q So you would receive a particular sales commission on the way in, and then another sales commission on the way out?
A Up to, but never exceeding, 20 percent. That is the legal limit. 15 percent is the going rate. I try to make sure the investors make money. So the outcome is usually 10 percent. The horses are getting sold for enough money that that is fine for me to keep cash flow going.

Q What authority are you relying upon when you say the legal limit is 20 percent?
A I think I read that somewhere. I couldn't -- probably on the Internet, which maybe is not legal. I'm not sure.

Q Okay.
A But I have been told that legally you should not accept more than 20 percent from other professionals.

Q Now, other than Chaplain -- you were telling me that's the horse that you entered a horse show recently riding?
A (Nod in the positive.)

Q What other horses have you shown any time from August 2006 to the present, as far as entered into a horse show where you rode them?
A I don't think any.

Q Is there any horses that were entered into a horse show that you had other people ride for you --
A No.

Q -- from August 2006 to the present?
A No.

Q Who purchased the horse Preston?
A Shoshana Gordon.

Q Want to spell Shoshana.
A S-H-O-S-H-A-N-A.

Q This was another horse that was through the Newman Equestrian Enterprise?
A Yes.

Q And what was the purchase price of Preston?
A 45,000.

Q And what portion of that 45,000 did you receive a commission on?
A I did not. She gave me a good arrangement renting her barn and her house; therefore, I received no commission.

Q So it isn't that you didn't get a commission. It was given to you in another form.
A So to speak. You can't put a monetary value on it though.

Q Okay. Other than Flemmingh, Silco, Preston and Travis, what other horses have you purchased from Newman Equestrian from August 2006 to the present?
A None.

Q Prior to August of 2006, had you ever done any business with Newman Equestrian or Michael Newman?
A No.

Q How is it that you came to know Michael Newman?
A I had a friend send me a video of a horse that he had for sale, that I liked quite a bit. So I contacted him. That horse was no longer available. He had just returned from Europe and said he would send me a tape of the new horses, and so we proceeded from there.

Q What was the horse that you really liked?
A I liked the four that I got.

Q I'm sorry. I apologize. Let me make it more clear. The videotape you had gotten of the horse that you liked that no longer was available for sale, what was the name of that horse?
A Marchello.

Q And what was the purchase price of Marchello?
A A hundred. Michael informed me that I would probably not like that horse as much as the tape showed. He was very honest with me.

Q And he told you he had just returned from Europe where he selected another group of horses?
A Yes.

Q When did you get that DVD of those horses?
A Mid July. I don't know the exact date. Mid to late July.

Q Okay. Now, we had sent to your attention the deposition notice for today.
A Yes.

Q You must have gotten it, because you found your way here today. Is that correct?
A Yes.

Q Did you bring with you any of the items that were requested that you bring with you?
A Most of those items are not in my possession, and I'm not -- I don't have easy access to a computer and/or printer/scanner anymore. So I will have to gather up the paperwork I do have, and I'll be happy to send it to you. But I'm not going to bring the originals, because I need a copy for myself, obviously.

Q All right. Well, let's go through that list now so you can tell me what you have or don't have. The first request was "Copies of any and all correspondence, including e-mail transmissions, between Michael or Karen Newman and yourself between January 2006 and the present." Why did you not bring those with you here today? .
A I didn't keep copies of the e-mails. Most of the actual business dealings were done online -- not online. On the phone. The online transactions were things like, Oh, I got the video. I like this horse. What -- you know, it was irrelevant. So it was nothing to save via e-mail.

Q You still have the same computer today that you've had all along?
A No. It wasn't my computer.

Q Whose computer were you using?
A Shoshana Gordon's.

Q And when did you stop using Shoshana's computer?
A When I moved out.

Q In December '06?
A And that computer broke. The screen died and the frame broke.

Q And what did you-all do with that computer?
A I don't know.

Q You got a new computer?
A No.

Q Whose computer are you using now?
A Friends' computer or I go to the library.

Q Now, I know that your e-mail address is elabelleh. Is that what I understand?
A Yes.

Q That's through AOL?
A Yahoo!.

Q Yahoo!. Okay. And your other is Pinested?
A Yes

QAnd that's a Hotmail account?
A Yes.

Q And you still have both of those accounts?
A Yes.

Q Any other e-mails that you use for your horse business?
A I use various e-mails for various reasons.

Q Any other e-mails that you use for the horse business?
A It just depends on the person. Yes, I have about eight e-mail addresses, but those are the two primary ones that I use.

Q What are the other e-mail addresses that you use?
A I don't see how that's relevant.

Q Well, it is relevant. I'm going to ask you again: What are the e-mail addresses you have used? .
A Well, it is relevant. I'm going to ask you again: What are the e-mail addresses you have used? .

Q Are there any other e-mail addresses that you have used for horses --
A Not to my knowledge.

Q You have to let me finish.
A I'd have to look.

Q Is there any other e-mail addresses that you have used from August of 2006 to the present as it relates to anything involving the horse business?
A As it relates to anything involving Flemmingh or Silco, absolutely not. As it relates to the horse business, I would have to look.

Q What would you have to look at to --
A I would have to look at the e-mail addresses and see what files are there.

Q Okay. And so --
A I don't -- I don't keep a lot of files in my e-mail. It drives me nuts. I actually only keep things that are pertinent. I had probably 60 investors respond to my ad. Do I keep all of those? No. Because most of them are people that want other things and have nothing to do with investment. So I delete most of what I receive. So I would literally have to look. I don't know.

Q Well, you've already told me that you have no access to Shoshana Gordon's computer, is that correct?
A Yes. Currently, I do not go to her house and use her computer.

Q Well, you told me that computer is broken. You haven't used it since December of '06.
A Yes.

Q And the computers you use now are people -- friends' and the library?
A Yes.

Q So obviously you would have to type in an e-mail address that you have --
A Yes.

Q -- in order to access those accounts.
A Yes.

Q And you can't tell me, as you sit --
A I can. But I don't want you mucking through my e-mail. I have friends and things that -- yes, I have things that are not pertinent, again, to this case or those horses. I would have to look. I don't know. I have an AOL account that I probably only use for business. Have I ever used it for personal? Have I ever used it for business? I don't know. I would have to look. Sometimes attachments don't work with certain e-mail addresses. So maybe one time I sent something business-related. I don't know if that's answering your question incorrectly, so I would have to look.

Q Okay.
A I don't know how to be more clear than that.

Q Okay. Let me ask the question, because each of these questions have to be reviewed by the judge. And I need to ask a complete question, so I get a complete answer, so the judge can rule upon those questions. My question to you is this: As you sit here today, you are aware of other e-mail addresses, because you certainly would have to type those e-mails into a computer in order to access those accounts, is that correct?
A Yes.

Q And you are refusing to give me those e-mail names and addresses other than lelabelleh and pinested?
A Yes. Because I don't know if they're strictly personal or business. And personal accounts are none of your business. And I would have to look which ones I've used for what. I'm aware of what all my e-mail addresses are. I'm not aware of what I have used them for. Mostly personal. But again, if I've sent one e-mail, and I tell you I haven't used it for business, then you're going to tell me that I lied. And I'm not going to do that. I would need to look.

Q Okay. The second request that we made was "Copies of all e-mails received by lelabelleh from January of 2006 to the present as it relates to the horses known as Flemmingh, Silco, Travis and Preston and all of the e-mails regarding your discussions with Mr. Buck." And I take it you have not brought those with you here today?
A I am happy to provide any and all e-mails to and from Marc Buck and myself regarding Flemmingh and Silco. I will provide that hopefully within the next week.

Q But you haven't.
A I'm trying to make arrangements to get a printer and all to get that done.

Q But you haven't brought them here today?
A No.

Q And you're telling me that --
A I was not given sufficient notice, actually, to get that done.

Q And did you not receive your deposition notice from Ms. Wolfskeil?
A No, I did not.

Q So if Ms. Wolfskeil tells us, under oath, that she sent it to you, then she's lying?
A I would have to say yes. Because the only deposition notice I received was from you.

Q You're telling me that you will send the e-mails as it relates to Number 2 of the duces tecum within seven days?
A I will make every effort to get that here within seven days. It relies on me coming up with a printer to print those out and get them to you. Assuming I can do that, absolutely. I've already started working on trying to resolve that issue.

Q The next request is "Copies of any and all purchase agreements or bill of sales from Michael Newman, Karen Newman and/or Newman Equestrian as it relates to the horses known as Flemmingh, Silco, Travis and Preston." And I presume you did not bring those with you here today?
A No. I will forward those along with the e-mails from Marc Buck. Again, I just need a printer.

Q "Copies of any and all purchase agreements or bill of sales from Michael Newman, Karen Newman and/or Newman Equestrian as it relates to any and all documents sent to or that include the name Heather Hargett or Heather Williams." You didn't bring those with you here today?
A Same response. I need a printer to print those out, and I will be happy to get those to you. Again, I was given four days to get this organized, and I -- unfortunately, I have other things I've been doing. But I have been trying to resolve it.

Q You didn't bring any of your redacted bank statements as it relates to the purchases of Flemmingh, Silco, Travis or Preston, is that correct?
A I don't have any bank statements that relate to the purchase of Flemmingh, Silco, Travis or Preston.

Q The $15,000 that you received for the sale of Travis as your commission, where did you deposit that money?
A That went toward my purchase of Silco.

Q The $10,000 that you took on top of the sale of Flemmingh, did that also go towards Silco?
A Yes, it did.

Q And did the $10,000 that -- how much did you put out for Silco?
A All of my commission money went to purchase Silco.

Q What other commission money did you receive other than the 25,000?
A That's what I received.

Q Okay. And you received --
A 10 from Silco, 10 from Flemmingh and 15 from Travis.

Q So you received an actual $10,000 from Mr. Buck's portion of Silco?
A I received a $10,000 commission for Flemmingh, a $10,000 commission for Silco and a $15,000 commission for Travis. Again, I only make commissions at the sales of horses.

Q I received a $10,000 commission for Flemmingh, a $10,000 commission for Silco and a $15,000 commission for Travis. Again, I only make commissions at the sales of horses.
A Correct.

Q Okay. And who made the remaining payment of the $2,500 that was due?
A It has not been made, until this gets resolved, obviously. I was prepared to do that at one point.

Q And you did not receive, if I understand correctly, any commission on Preston, is that correct?
A That is correct.

Q What was the actual purchase price from Mr. Newman of Flemmingh?
A 65,000.

Q And Silco?
A 65,000.

Q I think Travis, you told me 45, is that correct?
A No. Travis I said 85

Q And Preston was 45?
A Yes.

Q And have you bought any other horses, other than Flemmingh, Silco, Travis or Preston from Michael Newman?
A You asked me that already, and I answered no.

Q All right. Now, have you sold Travis at any point?
A No.

Q Okay. And have you sold Preston at any point?
A No. Shoshana Gordon bought Preston. He's not mine to sell.

Q My question for you was going to be -- so you don't have any involvement with Preston?
A (Shake in the negative.)

Q You have to answer out loud.
A Yes. No, I have no involvement with Preston since she bought him. It is her horse.

Q As it relates to Preston, do you have any involvement with riding or caring for Preston?
A No.

Q That was solely a sale? Off the horse went out of your hands?
A Yeah. I did her a favor. She was looking for a nice hunter. I helped her find one. It was that simple.

Q And who helped Shoshana Gordon, as far as a trainer?
A I have no idea.

Q Did you stable at Shoshana's farm?
A Yes.

Q And that was the Buttonwood Street?
A Yes. Buttonwood Street.

Q And how many stalls is that facility?
A Fourteen.

Q And how many stalls did you have at that facility when you were there?
A Six. Six to seven, just depending on the day.

Q You know, I didn't ask you this. What horses do you own?
A I don't.

Q You no longer own Pebbles?
A I never did.

Q Who owns Pebbles?
A A family member.

Q Who was that?
A I don't see how that's relevant.

Q Well, it is relevant.
A He doesn't want to be involved.

Q Ms. Hargett, it's not a matter of people being involved. You announced to my client and to others that you owned Pebbles, and you have --
A No.

Q Let me finish.
A I said family owned Pebbles. You can't ask me questions and put words in my mouth. I never said that I owned Pebbles.

Q Okay. Let me finish and you can answer it either way. You have represented to people in the horse industry that you are the owner of Pebbles. You're now telling me, as you sit here today, you've never represented yourself as the owner of Pebbles?
A A family member has always owned Pebbles. A family member owns Tristan. I have never owned the horses for this very reason.

Q Who is that family member?
A That owns Tristan? Fred Hargett.

Q Your father?
A Yes.

Q And how long has Mr. Hargett owned Tristan?
A Since April or May of '05.

Q Who owns Pebbles?
A Will Tattersall.

Q Who is Will Tattersall to you?
A My cousin.

Q And where does Will live?
A Again, I don't see the relevancy.

Q It is relevant. And I'd like to ask you: What state does Will live in?
A I'll refer to the judge on this. I don't want these people contacted. This is ridiculous. If you need a bill of sale for the horses, I'll provide one.

Q When was Pebbles purchased?
A October of '05.

Q And what was the purchase price of Pebbles?
A 80,000.

Q And who did Pebbles come from? What farm or trainer?
A Hidden Creek Farm.

Q And have you ever shown Pebbles?
A Yes.

Q When is the last time that you showed Pebbles?
A July.

Q Of '06?
A Yes.

Q And what type of classes were you doing in July of '06?
A The amateur owner hunters.

Q And is Pebbles one of your sale horses or is that a horse that's in the family?
A It's a horse that's in the family.

Q Okay. Who pays the expenses for Pebbles, your father -- I'm sorry -- Will Tattersall?
A It varies.

Q Do you ever have to pay expenses on Pebbles?
A I don't have to. Sometimes I do.

Q How about, Tristan, when was Tristan purchased? You said May of '05?
A Yes.

Q And what was the sale price of Tristan?
A 80,000, plus a $10,000 commission. So 90 total.

Q So you received a commission from your father?
A No, I did not. Todd Minikus received a commission.

Q And have you horse showed Tristan?
A Yes.

Q And when did you last show Tristan?
A July of '06.

Q And what horse show did you show in, in July of '06?
A I showed in the adult hunters?

Q What show? Littlewood or others?
A I don't know the name of the horse show. It was on the West Coast. It was a little horse show.

Q I take it that's where you also showed Pebbles?
A Yes.

Q Did you have a trainer helping you at that time?
A Just somebody that I picked up at the horse show. I started out with no one, and then there was somebody there that could help me on the ground, so I had them help me.

Q Did you take any other horses to that horse show, other than Pebbles and Tristan?
A Shoshana Gordon was there with me.

Q She took horses for herself?
A Yes.

Q At the time that you were at Buttonwood Street Stables, I presume one of the stalls was for Flemmingh?
A Yes.

Q One was for Silco?
A Yes.

Q Okay. And Pebbles and Tristan each have their own house, correct?
A Yes.

Q Okay. Who were the remaining horses?
A Travis. I paid for Preston's stall for one month until Shoshana bought him. And then Bernesto, Bernie.

Q Okay. And who owns Bernesto?
A It's irrelevant.

Q MS. NAVIN: We'll mark that.
A THE WITNESS: Doesn't pertain to Flemmingh or Silco.

Q How long has Bernesto been in your care?
A He's not anymore. He got sold.

Q And when did he get sold?
A November.

Q Of '06?
A Yes.

Q I presume you got your commission from that deal?
A Yes.

Q Okay. Any other horses that were in your care from August of 2006 through the present?
A Yes. Casanova.

Q Okay. Anyone else?
A Harvey.

Q Okay.
A And Baby. I don't think he really has a name, but that's what they call him.

Q Now, Casanova, how were you involved in caring for Casanova?
A He boarded with me, was offered for sale with me.

Q You're saying that in the past tense. He's no longer with you as a sale horse?
A No. He's at the horse show now. No, I'm not doing this until this is resolved.

Q And then --
A And then I had a horse that --

Q Whoa. Whoa.
A Well, there's another horse. Sorry.

Q Casanova?
A Yes.

Q You did not sell him?
A No.

Q He has gone off with somebody else?
A He's with the owners.

Q And who are the owners of Casanova.
A Andrew Vaziri.

Q Spell the last name.
A V-A-Z-I-R-I.

Q And --
A They own all three.

Q Okay. So they own Harvey and Baby as well?
A Yes.

Q Did you help them purchase these horses?
A No.

Q These are horses that came -- that were already owned by them and came to you for sale?
A Came to me more for care

Q And who was their trainer?
A They are their own trainer.

Q So you weren't involved in the actual training of these horses?
A No. We help each other.

Q And what type of -- does Andrew ride?
A Yes.

Q What type of classes does Andrew do?
A He doesn't show.

Q Who shows his horses for him?
A Currently, they're not showing.

Q They're just at the horse show being stabled?
A Uh-huh.

Q When they were showing, who would ride them?
A They're all babies. They haven't shown yet.

Q So you haven't received any commissions or anything, other than the care on Casanova, Harvey and Baby?
A Yes.

Q And when you were stabling these horses, Casanova, Harvey and Baby, how -- when you said you were responsible for their care, how did that work? Did they pay you a lump sum each month for --
A Just like Marc, they were billed monthly.

Q Were they billed a $75 day care as well?
A Yes. That was standard rate for me.

Q Tell me what your standard rates were from August of '06 to the present.
A $75 a day. It's outlined in the spreadsheet that Marc Buck received before he entered into a purchase agreement with any horse. Roughly $300 a month to shoe the horses, varying the expenses from the farrier. It's 275 plus expenses. Vet expenses are on top of that.

Q What else?
A Equipment is on top of that. Insurance is on top of that. Just for day care, for us to take care of the horse, pay the staff, feed it, bed its stall, rub on it, so it looks beautiful, make it fat and shiny and present it for sale, is $75 a day.

Q What other charges are involved?
A With?

Q With a horse that stables with you.
A Horse show fees are extra. Shipping is extra. Stall rentals are extra.

Q And the -- I take it there's a stall rental that goes with this as well?
A Meaning?

Q At the farm.
A Yes.

Q And what is the stall rental at the farm?
A For the farm I'm at now?

Q Well, why don't we start with where you were at when Marc first got involved with you.
A It started at a thousand dollars a month. And then the more horses I got, the less it got. I believe it went down to 750. But again, I'd have to look. That was six months ago.

Q Were you renting by the stall or were you renting a block of stalls?
A Renting by the stall.

Q And therefore, if we were to look at your books, there would be the same rate for Pebbles, Tristan, Casanova, Harvey, Baby?
A Absolutely.

Q And then when you moved, what was the rate? What did it change to when you moved?
A It changed to $1,500 a month, because it was during season. And that included staff, housing, stall rental.

Q What is the $75 a day? What is that?
A That covers just basic grooming: Feed, hay, shavings; pays the staff their salary; supplies; icing the foot three or four times a day or soaking the foot in Epsom salt three or four times a day; the bandaging; the laundry. You name it, it covers it.

Q Did it also include the riding and your riding and training?
A I don't really get paid to ride. That was something -- if I got paid to ride, it would be $125 a day, instead of $75 a day, which is what most people charge.

Q You're saying you would have tacked on another $50 for the riding?
A Not necessarily. But that's the going rate. So technically, no, I was not getting paid to ride. Again, I was trying to make money at the time of the sales so that everybody would make money.

Q Okay. How were you obtaining an income through this process, other than through the sales?
A I don't.

Q Now, you said there was another horse other than Casanova, Harvey and Baby?
A Candino.

Q And who owns Candino?
A I owned part of it with Shoshana Gordon. I had Shoshana Gordon buy me out.

Q And where did Candino come from?
A Holger Hetzel, H-O-L-G-E-R H-E-T-Z-E-L.

Q And when did you buy a portion of Candino?
A He -- I don't remember what day we paid for him. He was brought home from Miami in quarantine on November 22nd.

Q And how did you make arrangements to find Candino from overseas?
A I received a videotape.

Q From somebody overseas?
A Yes.

Q Okay. So you did that deal on your own?
A Yes.

Q Okay. And how much did she buy you out for?
A $30,000.

Q And did you have 30,000 in or did you take a loss?
A No. I had 30,000 in and I retained 20 percent of the profit on the back side.

Q Now, I understand you recently went to Germany for a horse travel sales with Shoshana?
A Yes.

Q And did you-all purchase horses or select horses at that time?
A In the process of.

Q And are you actually putting your money towards these horses, or is this just Shoshana's deal?
A Shoshana and I were looking at separate horses. She was looking for jumpers. I was looking for hunters.

Q And are you intending -- as you sit here today, have you made any commitments to purchase any of these horses for you? I'm not worried about Shoshana, but for you.
A Personally, no. But for other investors, yes.

Q And when will those horses be coming over?
A Just depends on when they get paid for.

Q Have you secured investors already for these horses, or are you out in the process of doing that?
A Both.

Q And has Shoshana already secured her deals for her horses to bring them over?
A I don't know. I haven't discussed it with her.

Q Other than -- did you receive any type of a commission for selecting any of the horses from Shoshana?
A No. She and I work together on these matters.

Q And who paid for your trip to go to German? Was that something she covered for you?
A Yes.

Q And when these horses come here to the United States, whatever the prices are, have you tacked on any additional monies as far as -- let me back up a second.
A Okay.

Q I fully understand in the horse world that you're paid for your time and your talent. And I fully understand that you may select or find a horse for $5,000, that when it comes here to the United States may be worth a whole lot more money. I understand that. I'm not attempting to besmudge you in any way for you to make your monies in your process of selecting horses. That's not my intent. My question to you is: Did you find horses in Germany that you feel you want to purchase that when they come here they will be more money that your investors will be buying?
A I will not make anything more than I typically make, 10 or 15 percent commission. If it's a $5,000 horse, I will probably make a 15 percent commission, because it's such a little amount of money. The more expensive they get -- I will never make more than 10 percent, if it's a $75,000 horse or whatever. That is just -- it's got to make sense. The back side has to make sense. Will I buy one for 5 and sell it to them for 45? No. I don't do that. I never have.

Q Okay. The horses that you looked at in Germany, what were the vary in price ranges? I'm sure you looked at hundreds of them. I'm talking about the ones you've chosen. What were the price ranges from the smallest to the largest?
A The three-year-old that I really liked was $30,000 Euros. So by the time you get it here, that is 45- to $50,000. But it's been ridden three times. And it went up to a 150,000 Euros for meter-fifty horses. They jump one-meter-fifty high.

Q Those are already established horses?
A Yes.

Q And of the ones that you were hoping to get, were those all young horses?
A There was a three-year-old, two four-year-olds, a five-year-old, a six-year-old, a four-year-old pony and two three-meter-fifty horses. Sorry. Three. One was seven. The other two were ten.

Q Now, when you -- how did you know to make connections with Germany? Is that something that you did your own research on online?
A I've had connections with people since I started -- it's just what you do. Twenty years of experience in the business, you get to know people.

Q Okay.
A I had a friend send me to an agent. That agent sent me to another agent. We drove 4,400 kilometers in eight or nine days. We went all over Germany. We went to Demark. Didn't find any horses worth anything there. Left Germany. We were in Austria for a day. We were all over. It's what you do. You go and look.

Q Now, the horse that -- I'm using a generality here. I'm not asking you to tell me each of their purchase prices. But a horse like the one you're talking about, the 30 Euros, what do you tell your investors with respect to the cost involved with respect to shipping the horse here to the United States?
A I try to make sure that when we negotiate deals, that we price the horses to have them shipped to the U.S. We want the Europeans to have to take care of the flight and all of that, so that -- it's just easier. We want it delivered to our door. And then the costs involved are exactly what Marc Buck received at the beginning of all this before he entered into a purchase agreement. It is $75 a day for care. It is $300 a month for shoeing. That is just -- that's not my cost. That is just the cost of doing business, to do it properly. Sure. You can board horses for $600 a month, but they're not receiving the same care.

Q Okay. Let's go back to my question. And you partly answered it, partly didn't. But we'll pick it apart. The 30,000 Euros --Okay.
A Yes.

Q Let's use the three-year-old, for instance. Of that horse, you've already built into that 30,000 Euros the flights?
A Yes. Not with the 30,000 Euros. What we would do, when it comes time to purchase that horse, is -- I have to do the math and see what the euro translates into, because it's different than when I was there. But say that horse is roughly $50,000. Then it's probably going to be 60 to get it here, by the time we pay for the flight, that's 5 grand; pay the 2 grand in quarantine; and pay me probably a $3,000 commission. That's how it works.

Q What is done with respect to the veterinary purchase exam while the horse is in Germany?
A The horses already have current x-rays. Those x-rays have been sent here. A vet will review them. Before the horse gets purchased, it will get officially vetted.

Q Now, how old are these x-rays on these horses?
A The ones that I have are for the three-year-old. A good example is from November. So fairly new. Some of them are two years old and --

Q How do you know, as you sit there looking at those radiographs, that those radiographs really belong to that horse?
A I don't. Unfortunately, that is part of the business; that there really is no way for me to know. You have to hope that in Germany there's a law for the vets, that it is against the law for them to send you other horse's x-rays. It is against the law for them to do anything short -- you know, things like tranquilizing the horses. It's pretty -- pretty strict guidelines over there. Holland is a very different story. Very sketchy people to deal with, from what I've learned.

Q I've bought a lot of horses from Germany. I'm very familiar with the laws. There are no laws like that.
A I was told by a vet there that those were the laws. Matter of fact, one horse that Shoshana Gordon vetted, that did not pass the vet, the vet wanted her to sign a ten-page disclaimer saying he would not stand behind the horse.

Q Well, my question to you is this: You could certainly be there with the horse, right?
A Correct.

Q And you-all don't do that? You don't feel that you should be there?
A If it's cost-prohibitive, sometimes you can't.

Q What do you do with respect to -- what are the guarantees that come with the purchases?
A The guarantees. It depends on who you're dealing with.

Q Tell me about your situation with your $30,000 three-year-old.
A The dealer that I am going through to purchase that horse needs to sell horses. And I feel like if he feels like that somehow that horse was not what he told me it was or somehow is -- there's something that was previous to me buying it and doing something to the horse, he probably would try to take it back and fix it and trade it out for another horse, something like that. I don't know. I've not bought a horse through him yet. But I feel pretty good about my relationship with him.

Q When you purchase the horses -- let's just use Flemmingh, for instance. When you purchased Flemmingh, you purchased him through Newman Equestrian, is that correct?
A Yes.

Q And you knew and understood that he was not going to step foot in Newman Equestrian. He was coming from Germany and sitting in quarantine in Miami?
A Correct.

Q And what due diligence did you do in determining the quality of Flemmingh?
A I rode him three days in a row before he got paid for. I had a vet come and do an insurance exam to insure his soundness. And I talked to a leading horse show vet that did the prepurchase for Newman Equestrian in regards to the horse. Probably a better vet than what I had access to in Wellington at the time.

Q What was Flemmingh's show history that was told to you that made him worth $75,000?
A It wasn't a show history that made him worth $75,000. It was his mentality. The fact that he got off that plane, came to the farm, settled right in, didn't try to kill me the first day I rode him. Most of them do. His mentality, his demeanor, his talent. That spoke volumes about the horse. He's a very good jumper, a very good mover and very quiet.

Q What did you see with regards to Flemmingh working, prior to the horses coming to your facility?
A What do you mean "working"? I saw him on a video. That was it.

Q And who currently has that video?
A It's probably in the garbage. I don't know if Michael Newman has a copy or not, but I don't particularly keep those things. Once we get the horses here, we try to generally make a video of our own, and the video from Europe gets tossed, because the Germans ride very different than we do.

Q Well, you obviously showed the video to Dr. Schneider, correct?
A Correct.

Q So you didn't throw it in the trash when she saw --
A Right, right. But when I moved, I probably did. I may still have it. I have no idea. It may be in a box somewhere. I doubt it. I don't typically keep those things. If I kept every video I had, I would have more than would fit in this room.

Q Did you tell Ms. Wolfskeil that you had given that DVD to Palm Beach Equine and it was still in their possession?
A No, I did not. And she did not say that either. She said the x-rays were sent to Palm Beach Equine. Nothing about the video. Dr. Schneider came into the house and watched the video right on the TV screen in Shoshana's house. She never took the video with her. And I feel sure Ms. Wolfskeil either misspoke unintentionally or that's not totally correct. She mentioned the x-rays, not the video.

Q Where are the x-rays?
A I never received the x-rays personally. They were sent directly from Newman Equestrian to Palm Beach Equine. Palm Beach Equine says now that they don't have them. And again, Michael is like I am, he doesn't keep files for horses he doesn't currently have. Palm Beach Equine's got to have a copy of them somewhere.

Q Now, what was on the DVD that showed Flemmingh? What was he shown doing on the DVD?
A He walked, trotted, cantered, did a lead change each way, jump to jump, back and forth. This is why we didn't pay for him just off the video. We wanted to see him in person. But talented enough to want to see him in person.

Q Did -- on the DVD, was he shown both directions, left and right?
A At the trot, he was only shown going one direction.

Q What type of show history did he have in Germany? What were you told as far as any competitions or his level of training in Germany?
A I was told he started out as a dressage horse, and he had been jumping for the past year.

Q And how high was he jumping in Germany?
A I was told three-foot-six. I was told that he could probably go to a horse show and do a couple three-foot horse shows and move right up into the three-foot-six.

Q Who told you that?
A Michael Newman or Karen Newman. Michael, I feel sure. And after riding him, I would concur.

Q Hold on. I haven't gotten there.
A Well, that was part of my answer.

Q I'm getting there. Okay.
A I think she's typing faster than you're writing.

Q Now, when you saw the DVD, you wanted him to come to the farm, is that correct?
A Yes. I didn't see the need for the horse to travel to Ocala, sit for two days, travel all the way to Pace, Florida, fly up there, try the horses and then ship them 12 hours back. That's hard on the horses. I persuaded Mr. Newman to send the four horses to me for a couple of days, to let me see if I liked them, before they had to make the 12-hour trek. It's hard on them to fly and then ship them 12 hours.

Q Did you make an agreement with Mr. Newman that the horses would be brought to your farm, trotted for their soundness, and at that point you were guaranteeing the purchase of those horses?
A I don't know that I would word it exactly like that.

Q Okay. Tell me the agreement you made with him.
A I told him that I felt certain that the horses would get bought if they could come to the farm. That they needed to be evaluated. I wanted -- while they passed the vet. And I had already spoken with a vet about the horses. I wanted to be sure that nothing happened during transit. And he felt like that was a fair request. And if one horse had been paid for, and we decided it was deemed unsound, within 24 hours he would send the money back.

Q Okay. Now, with -- as it relates to Flemmingh, what vet did you speak to regarding the radiographs that Michael Newman had?
A Dr. Barber. And I believe -- I'm not positive on this. I think I also spoke to Peterson & Smith. I think I spoke to both vets about all four horses.

Q So when you called there and wanted to talk with them about Flemmingh, Silco, Travis and Preston, they had a file on each of them?
A To my knowledge, yes.

Q Well, they certainly got on the phone and spoke with you?
A Yes, they did.

Q And what did they tell you with regard to any of the findings on Flemmingh's radiographs?
A Nothing. They said his radiographs were pristine. The only radiograph that was not pristine, was Silco's right front ankle has a small chip outside the joint. With -- given his age and his job, it was deemed not a concern. That happens very often in this business. They said it could be removed at some point, but it was very smooth and would probably cause no problems. I have had other horses with similar x-rays and never had a problem with them.

Q With regard to Flemmingh --
A Yes.

Q -- and the pristine radiographs, what other vet reports did you review, as far as on flexions, any of the general physical issues in review of the horse?
A I was told that his flexions were perfect. I was told -- Flemmingh passed the vet better than any of the other three -- any of the four horses. He had the best vetting.

Q Did you ever have in your hand -- other than what you were told, did you ever have in your hand the DVD with respect to the radiographs of Flemmingh, Silco, Travis or Preston?
A No. Those were sent directly to Palm Beach Equine. I don't know how to review radiographs. I did not go to veterinary school.

Q Now, when you said they were sent to Palm Beach Equine, who were they sent to at Palm Beach Equine?
A Dr. Kim Schneider. I think directly to her e-mail address. Karen Newman sent them for Flemmingh before he had his nuclear scintigraphy -- before or just after his nuclear scintigraphy, while he was at the clinic.

Q But that was certainly well after he was purchased?
A Oh, for sure. Again, I spoke with Dr. Barber in regards to all the horses. Dr. Barber is a highly reputable horse show vet that I've used in the past. I respect his opinion abundantly. When he said the horses had good x-rays and were fine, that was enough. That's better than going to Palm Beach Equine, where you have 18 to 20 vets. And not saying that they're not good, but they don't travel to horse shows and look at horse show horses all the time.

Q That's your understanding?
A That is -- yes, that's my understanding. I had -- I had a previous experience with Dr. Barber. I didn't really have a previous experience with Palm Beach Equine.

Q Do you consider yourself personal friends with Dr. Kim Schneider?
A Yeah. We're friendly.

Q Do you do things outside of veterinary work? Do you go to dinner?
A No.

Q So it's fair to say then, no vet, other than Dr. Barber, who was engaged on behalf of Michael Newman -- no vet on your end looked at these radiographs for Flemmingh, Silco, Travis or Preston?
A Not the radiographs. But Dr. Griffith came and looked at the horses and passed them for an insurance exam.

Q And you understand an insurance exam is a very cursory review, correct?
A Cursory? Please explain.

Q Well, you tell me. You were there during the exams for doctor --
A They had to jog and be sound. He is deeming them that the insurance policy is bound by soundness and health.

Q And he certainly didn't get to review the DVDs or the x-rays?
A Didn't ask to.

Q And he didn't do anything with regard to flexions?
A He did an evaluation on Flemmingh, not on Silco.

Q Okay. But not -- that was later?
A That was later. He was at free range to do whatever he wanted. He's the one that has to sign off on that, not me.

Q So it's your position that -
A I'm relying on him to make those decisions. I hadn't finished either. Sorry.

Q Are you done now?
A Yeah.

Q Okay. The insurance examination, you paid how much for that?
A I don't know. It's on his bill. I'd have to look it up.

Q About a hundred bucks.
A Okay.

Q Now, a prepurchase examination that had been done properly in Wellington, Florida, would cost how much money?
A Depends on who does it. Probably 1,500 to 2,000.

Q Now, you billed Mr. Buck for a prepurchase examination for $1,281 on Flemmingh.
A That was an estimate. He paid me the day he paid for the horse, knew I had not received a bill, knew that that was a guesstimate of what we were receiving. I fully expected to receive a bill from Dr. Barber and/or Peterson & Smith and Dr. Griffith. And that money applied to a bill that did forward to Flemmingh for his ankles and feet being injected.

Q And what bill was that?
A You have a copy of it.

Q So there was really no prepurchase examination done in the truest sense of what -- let me finish -- in the truest sense of what we do in the horse industry of a prepurchase examination, where you stood there with a vet, watched the x-rays and flexions and prepurchase examination be done, is that correct?
A I felt that Dr. Barber did the best examination that could be done for what -- for the people I was exposed to.

Q Well, he never met the horses, correct?
A He gave the horses the okay, and I -- again, I respect his opinion abundantly. Given the chance to do it again, maybe I would do it differently to avoid aggravation. But those horses, if they got vetted now, the x-rays would still be the same as they were the day that they arrived. And those horses have good x-rays.

Q But we don't know that, because you don't have the x-rays. You lost or trashed them.
A I have not lost them. I never had them in my possession. I couldn't lose something I never had.

Q Well, isn't it your job, as an agent, as somebody who is buying and selling horses, to retain the documentation that comes with the horses?
A Actually, x-rays, legally, are not allowed out of the hands of the veterinarian. Peterson & Smith and/or Dr. Barber should have a copy of those x-rays. I could call Dr. Steel's clinic in New York and get x-rays on a horse that I vetted in 1998, if I needed to.

Q Well, we all know that these are not x-rays in the truest sense. This is a DVD, is that correct?
A I don't know how they came. I know that they were sent via e-mail from Karen Newman to Palm Beach Equine. I don't know if they're on a DVD.

Q Well, Dr. Barber never met the horse Flemmingh, is that correct? You understand that?
A Yes, I do.

Q He never did an examination?
A Yes. I understand that.

Q You understand he received an e-mail with a DVD of x-rays from Michael Newman to review?
A Yes.

Q So those films are still sitting in Germany somewhere, presumably?
A I suppose.

Q Well, those aren't originals that are sitting in Dr. Barber's hands, are they?
A No. I don't have originals for any of the horses I own.

Q I understand that. But you didn't maintain or ask for a set or a copy on that DVD for your records?
A No. I don't keep a set of x-rays, because, again, I can't read them and they are useless to me.

Q But they might --
A I can -- I should be able to go back to their referring veterinarian and get a copy of the x-rays. Again, when I purchased a horse and somebody calls me up and says, Where are the x-rays for Leroy Brown, I can call Dr. Ober, get the number to his clinic, and they can pull up those x-rays from ten years ago, if need be.

Q Well, you could have had other radiographs done?
A Could have. Should have. Abso --

Q Can I finish, please?
A Absolutely.

Q Were there ever radiographs done of Flemmingh's feet or stifles by Dr. Schneider?
A I don't know. I'd have to look at the bill. I don't think so.

Q When Flemmingh came to your farm, at the time that you were the agent for Mr. Buck, using his money to buy horses, you could have had a complete examination done on Silco and Flemmingh, right then and there, in order to determine whether or not those horses' x-rays from Germany were, in fact, those horses?
A Again, I respect Dr. Barber's opinion more than I respected anybody -- any unknown vet in Florida at the time. Dr. Barber is a much more reputable horse show vet. That is why I chose to go with his opinion.

Q Well, you could have shipped the horses, then, to Dr. Barber and asked him to do a complete examination.
A I didn't feel it was necessary.

Q How soon after you purchased Flemmingh did he come up lame?
A About three days after Marc Buck turned down an offer for a hundred thousand for the horse.

Q And who made the offer for a hundred thousand for Flemmingh?
A Customers in Orlando.

Q And who were they?
A It's irrelevant.

Q It is very relevant. You just said --
A They didn't come here to look at the horse, because he wouldn't let me show the horse. I said, "I have customers coming from Orlando that want to spend a hundred thousand on a horse. Can I show them Flemmingh?" He said, "No. If I can't make 50 points on my money in four days, I don't want to do it."

Q Who were "they"? I need to know who they were.
A They were customers of an agent, and I'm not giving that information to you.

Q Well, you need to give me that information because --
A I'll give it to the judge, if need be.

Q Well, you need to give the information, because you just sat here and told me that you tried to make money for Mr. Buck and he refused it.
A I have an e-mail writing that he refused to let me show the horse. I can provide you with that.

Q I need to verify who these individuals were that -- so you're telling me they were willing to come and look at him, not necessarily purchase him?
A They had already seen a videotape of the horse. So, yes.

Q And what videotape did they see?
A They had a copy. I downloaded the little clip from Germany and e-mailed it to them.

Q And this is the same clip you say you don't have anymore?
A Yeah. I don't have it anymore.

Q So now we at least know that there's a third party somewhere out there that has a copy of it.
A Maybe. Quite possibly.

Q Who is that person?
A I'm not giving you information on my customers. That is my client base, and I'm not giving that information out. Not until I've at least discussed it with them. That's not fair to them. A lot of people don't want to be involved in this.

Q Well, I may understand that --
A I may have -- maybe I'm lucky and I have a copy of the e-mail and I will forward that to you.

Q My main purpose is to a find a copy of this DVD that supposedly --
A I'll look for it. Maybe I have it. I don't know.

Q Well, at least we now know somebody in Orlando has it, correct?
A Yes. If they kept it on their e-mail. I mean, I don't keep all that stuff. I get hundreds of DVDs a month, and I don't keep them all, because most of them -- if you're not going to buy the horse, why do you need to keep it?

Q Now, the videotape that they saw was just enough to entice them to come to your farm?
A They loved the horse, was the comment.

Q That wasn't a guaranty sale, was it?
A It never is a guaranty sale until the money is in the bank.

Q Now, you told me that it showed up lame three days later.
A That was -- I was being facetious. It showed up lame shortly thereafter. I think it's the cardinal sin in the horse business that if you're making money, you don't sell. It just seems to be followed up by unfortunate mishaps with horses. It's just -- again, it was just being facetious.

Q How soon after you purchased Flemmingh, was he -- did you have a vet out there because of questionable lameness?
A I would have to say roughly two weeks. I didn't -- I didn't call the vet in right away. The horse pulled a shoe off in the paddock and stood on the toe clip. He bled on the side of his foot a little bit. We spent two weeks soaking his foot and light work, trying to get a handle on his foot growth, things like that, before we called the vet in.

Q When the horse arrived, was he in shoes with clips?
A Yes. Those were the shoes he pulled off.

Q How many times did you ride the horse after he arrived at your farm?
A Every day.

Q Okay. You rode him -- how many days had he been out of quarantine when you rode him?
A The next day. Because no point in wasting time.

Q And what did you do with the horse on that day?
A Walk, trotted, maybe cantered a little bit the first day, jumped a little the second day, jumped bigger the third day.

Q How high did you jump on the second day?
A The second day that I jumped him?

Q No, no. On the second day that you rode him?
A Marginal. Just a handful of jumps just to make sure that he --

Q What height?
A Two-foot-three, two-foot-six maybe.

Q How many jumps do you think he jumped?
A Maybe eight.

Q I take it you were riding him?
A Yes.

Q Who was on the ground helping you with him?
A Shoshana. Or nobody. She was probably riding a horse.

Q Did you video your ride?
A No.

Q Was anybody else there?
A No.

Q And then the next day?
A I jumped him a little more, a little bigger.

Q And how tall did you jump him on that day?
A I don't know. A little bigger. Incrementally, the horses -- I treat them like athletes. It's like weightlifting. You just don't sock it to them the first day, as I've explained to your client.

Q I understand that. I've been around horses all my life.
A So incrementally, each day we did a little more. It depended on his respiration. There was maybe one I didn't jump him.

Q Hold on. Let's back up. You rode the horse for three days before you officially bought him?
A Yeah. I jumped him three-foot-six before we purchased the horse.

Q So the first --
A Made sure he was more than capable of the job.

Q The first day you walk, trotted and did a little bit of canter, you think?
A Yes.

Q The second day you took him out, you did the same as far as walk, trot, canter?
A (Nod in the positive.)

Q And you jumped maybe eight jumps at two-foot-three and two-foot-six?
A Yes.

Q Then the next day, the third day, how high did you jump him on that day?
A I probably jumped a couple of larger jumps to make sure he was more than qualified for the job, but I did not jump 50 three-foot-six jumps. I would not do that to the horse.

Q I understand. You jumped two, three three-foot-six jumps?
A Probably. I jumped a line back and forth probably once or twice.

Q Who was with you on that day?
A If Shoshana Gordon was there, she would have been there. Nobody else would have been there. And I don't know that she was there. It was August.

Q You jump horses on your own?
A Yes.

Q Not with anybody out there watching?
A Regularly. I've been doing this for 20 years.

Q Okay. After you did these three days, you felt that the horse was capable of the job that Mr. Newman had told you he could do?
A I absolutely loved the horse. Couldn't say enough nice things about it.

Q Did you ask anyone else to come and help you evaluate the horse, other than just yourself?
A No. I don't do that. I don't need to do that. I'm very confident in my purchases.

Q And based on these three days of you spending time with the horse, you felt he was worth 65,000, correct?
A I thought he was worth a significant amount of money. I thought he was worth a lot more than that; otherwise, I wouldn't have had Mr. Buck buy him as an investment.

Q How many horses, up to the time you had purchased Flemmingh, had you personally sold for more than a hundred thousand dollars?
A A handful.

Q Less than five?
A Probably more than five. Less than ten. Mr. Buck was aware of this, though. He knew that this was an expanding business.

Q I'm not here to question your --
A If this is all I have to go to the judge with, I need to --

Q Okay.
A I need to state my purpose here.

Q Okay. All right.
A It can't be one-sided.

Q You'll have your time to ask Mr. Buck for a deposition, if you so choose.
A Perfect.

Q And when you do so, you can ask him all the questions you want. Now, at the time that you had gotten involved with Mr. Buck, you had sold more than five but maybe less than ten horses over a hundred thousand dollars?
A Yes.

Q When, prior to the time you got involved with Mr. Buck on August 3rd, or somewhere around there, 2006 -- in what proximity to that date had you sold the last horse for a number over a hundred thousand?
A I hadn't sold a horse in at least a year, because I had been doing research about the business, trying to expand, trying to figure out the best way to do it. I wasn't trying to sell horses. I was researching what made people good at this business.

Q You sent Mr. Buck a business plan, is that correct?
A Yes, I did.

Q And how did you know to develop that business plan? Is that something you learned in college?
A No. I'd have to just say, common sense. When I've talked to business people, that was a recommendation made to me.

Q Now, you had done -- you had come down here for the Wellington circuit on numerous occasions prior to moving down here --
A The last 11 years, yes.

Q Let me finish. You've come down to the Wellington area to horse show prior to you coming here to live, is that correct?
A Yes.

Q All right. So you obviously knew and met with many folks who bought and sold horses here in Wellington?
A Yes.

Q You, in your business plan that you sent to Mr. Buck, talked about the company having direct competitors in the market, is that correct?
A Yes.

Q And you told him about the use of the Internet for sales.
A Yes.

Q Do you remember who you told him was the only competitor in the East Coast that sells quality show horses?
A Jimmy Torano.

Q And you then proceeded to tell him that Jimmy Torano -- in your business plan here, that Mr. Torano's disadvantage is that he's not a personal person, he's nonpersonal?
A In my opinion, he's not. The customer is like a factory over there. There's not a lot of individualized attention.

Q And that's what you wrote, "There is no afterthought given to having repeat customers."
A Yeah. There's a lot of horses that go through there that you never see again.

Q And you called Mr. Torano greedy and you treat business -- and he treats business as an assembly line.
A That's what I just said. It was a little bit like a manufacturing company. I like Jimmy Torano very well. I think he's a very reputable guy. But in my opinion, those are the things that I do better than he does.

Q And you think that was your only competitor to selling horses in this market in Wellington?
A It's a business plan. It was my first attempt at a business plan. That is the only competitor I listed. For sure there's others, but I think there's a lot of people that do this that don't do it very well. And I strive to do this the best possible.

Q Wouldn't you consider Mr. Minikus a competitor?
A No. Mr. Minikus sells mostly jumpers. Very rarely does he have a hunter to sell. And he's my trainer. So, no, I don't consider him as a competitor, because he helps me sell my horses.

Q Who are some of the other competitors in the show horse business other than Mr. Torano?
A There's not that many that I respect what they do. So I would say, not very many.

Q Whether you respect them or not, you don't consider them competitors?
A No. Because they're not competing at the same level. If they're not supplying quality horses, it's not the same.

Q So you feel you are superior to individuals like Jimmy Torano?
A I didn't say that.

Q I'm asking you: Do you find yourself superior in your sales of horses to Mr. Torano?
A No. I find some of the things that I offer clients superior.

Q And what are those?
A Things like, again, personal customer appreciation.

Q Okay. You never made any payments to Mr. Newman, Newman Equestrian, Karen Newman or Aubrey Hill for the horses that were purchased of Tristan, Preston, Flemmingh or Silco, is that correct?
A Tristan wasn't purchase from them, and I don't understand the question.

Q Preston was not purchased from Newman Equestrian?
A I didn't say that. I said, "Tristan."

Q I said, "Preston." I'm sorry.
A You said, "Tristan." You said, "Tristan, Preston."

Q Let me start again.Flemmingh, Silco, Travis and Preston, did you make any payments where, in other words, money flowed through your hands for any of those horses to Michael Newman, Karen Newman, Newman Equestrian or Aubrey Hill?
A No, I did not.

Q Why is it that you supplied my client a purchase agreement for Flemmingh?
A That was a contract he entered into so that I could be sure he would follow through with the deal. We needed something in writing. He actually asked for the contract, not myself. It states that he's responsible for the bills on the horse, what the purchase price of the horse was, so on and so forth. It's just a standard purchase agreement.

Q Okay. Where did you secure that purchase agreement from?
A Aubrey Hill.

Q This is something that they sent to you, the purchase agreement?
A Yes.

Q Now, the purchase agreement, who filled in the blanks on the purchase agreement as far as Marc Buck being the buyer?
A I took Aubrey Hill's purchase agreement, voided out all the unnecessary information and made it my own.

Q Was this purchase agreement initially the purchase agreement from Aubrey Hill to you?
A There's a lot of -- there's lots of things omitted, things like the horse is coming from quarantine. Yes, I took their stereotypical purchase agreement and made it my own.

Q When you told Newman Equestrian and Michael Newman, Karen Newman -- and actually, let's do it this way. When I'm talking about Newman Equestrian, I'm talking about Michael, Karen and Aubrey Hill. Is that fair?
A Correct. Yes.

Q All right. For the sake of Kelly's fingers, we'll call it Newman Equestrian. Now, when you initially had decided you wanted to purchase Flemmingh, did they supply you with a purchase agreement?
A Yes.

Q And that purchase agreement was between whom and whom?
A Heather Williams and Aubrey Hill.

Q Heather Williams as what?
A I don't understand the question.

Q Were you considered the buyer in that purchase agreement?
A Yes. Because I made a commission.

Q Okay. And were you considered -- and they were considered the seller?
A Yes.

Q If the fact that you were making a commission was open and obvious and known, why then would you not have had the purchase agreement made between Mr. Buck, as the buyer -- let me finish -- and Newman Equestrian, as the seller?
A Because, typically, I don't like to give away my sources of where I'm purchasing horses, because then eventually I'm eliminated from the equation. That's not my standard procedure.

Q Well, you really weren't the buyer, though, were you?
A No.

Q You didn't have the funds to buy Flemmingh?
A No. But the horse went through me, because I made the commission. That's how I had been instructed to do these purchases.

Q I understand. But this is a legal contract. You understand that?
A Yes.

Q So you accepted a legal contract from Newman Equestrian in your name, Heather Williams, which doesn't even exist as a legal name --
A It did at the time.

Q Let me finish. Heather Williams' legal name existed at the time of these agreements, is that what you're telling me here today?
A Yes. I had tried to change my name online. I thought the process was done; otherwise, I would not have entered into that. I would have signed it Heather Hargett.

Q You have documents and proof of when you attempted to make changes?
A No. It didn't go into effect, because I did not know anything about needing to get fingerprinted.

Q When did you make the decision to change your name to Heather Williams?
A Early in the summer. Long before this.

Q When you say, "long before this," a month before this? Two months before this?
A I don't know. During the summer.

Q Okay. Did you make an effort to change your name because you were getting into this new business?
A No. Absolutely not. It had nothing to do with that. Again, back to the original, it was for personal reasons.

Q Now, you entered into -- go ahead.
A If I was trying to scam Mr. Buck, I would not have given him a copy of my driver's license that said Hargett. I would have used Williams with him.

Q With respect -- did you ever tell Mr. Buck, at any time that you were doing business with him, when you were sending him bills, that your name was changed to Heather Williams now?
A No. Because it was never official until I hired Alecia to do that. I did not realize there was such rigamarole to get your name changed; otherwise, I would not have started using Williams. I thought I was okay to start using Williams. I did it prematurely.

Q You agree that you received a legal document, a purchase agreement, from Newman Equestrian that listed Heather Williams as the buyer?
A Yes.

Q And you will agree with me, as we sit here today, you were never the buyer of Flemmingh, were you?
A Technically, I was, because I made a commission. That's what I was told.

Q Well, you never had in your bank account, at the time that this purchase of Flemmingh was done, $65,000 to purchase Flemmingh, is that correct?
A Not necessarily. But I didn't send the money for Flemmingh. So take it as you will.

Q Okay. Well, if I ask the judge to look at your back account, you didn't have $65,000 to pay for Flemmingh at the time of this purchase agreement, at the time that you had an agreement from Newman Equestrian?
A Not in my Griffin Gate Farm account, no.

Q Now, when you did business with Michael Newman, did you tell him there was a third party?
A No.

Q Why not?
A Because Mr. Buck and I had discussed me staying an amateur because it makes the horses more profitable. And I was trying to retain my amateur status because I would be a direct competitor with his wife at some point. Mr. Buck wanted anything to make the horses more valuable.

Q Let's talk about how you met Mr. Buck. How did you come to meet Mr. Buck?
A He answered an ad I placed on Craigslist.

Q What was that ad for?
A An investor.

Q An investor for what?
A Show horses.

Q Now, would he have known that it was for show horses from the ad itself, or did he have to contact you to learn more?
A He had to contact me to learn more.

Q And at the time that you initially communicated with Mr. Buck, it was through e-mail, correct?
A Absolutely.

Q And you passed e-mails back and forth with respect to references?
A Yes.

Q And your business plan?
A Yes.

Q And your sales history and your experience in the business?
A Yes. And spreadsheets that outline the costs.

Q I understand that. I was getting there. And spreadsheets?
A Yes.

Q Did you understand from Mr. Buck in either -- at any time that you were communicating with him by e-mail or when you met him in person, that he didn't have a clue about the horse industry?
A Absolutely.

Q And he didn't know the first thing about where to stand by a horse, did he?
A Absolutely. I knew he knew nothing about horses. I understood him to be a savvy business-minded person, which is why we entered into this agreement.

Q And Mr. Buck wouldn't have known the difference between you being an amateur or professional, would he?
A No.

Q You had to explain that to him?
A I did explain that to him. We sat in Shoshana's formal living room and discussed things like, if we go to a horse show, are you okay with me staying an amateur, or do I need to be a professional? The pros and cons associated with that.

Q And he wouldn't have known one way or another, other than the information you gave him?
A For sure.

Q Now, when you were buying this horse, you were buying it -- or when you got into this business deal, you're getting into this deal with investors as a professional?
A Yes.

Q You are an agent representing yourself as somebody that has been 20 years in the business and knows how to pick a quality horse?
A Absolutely. But he knew I had never shown as a professional. I have always shown as an amateur, and I told him that.

Q I understand. But you think that would have made a difference to Mr. Buck? He would have known the difference between you showing as an amateur or professional?
A Would I have let him buy horses if he had told me that the only money he had to his name was that money. I would have told him, Don't buy horses. Put your money in a savings account and don't spend it. Go get a job. That's what I would have told him. If you're doing investments, there's risk involved. Horses are a high risk. There's high profit, but there's high risk also. And that was outlined for him. I explained to him, implicitly, horses get hurt, horses die, things like that. I told him I had a horse that died. I told him I had a horse that got hurt and went to surgery. All of these things were discussed out in the open before he entered into any type of purchase agreement.

The expenses were outlined before he entered into a purchase agreement. I explained things like, there's equipment that you will find online that costs less than what we're going to buy. There are places that you can board your horse for $300 a month. We are not doing that. And if you want to do it that way, I don't want to be involved. It is top of the line or not at all. I was very clear.

Q My question was -- and I appreciate you giving me all of that. But my question was: Would Mr. Buck have known the difference between an amateur and a professional if you had not explain that to him?
A I would assume that he knows the difference in the terminology amateur and professional. I think it speaks for itself.

Q You think it does?
A Look it up in a dictionary: Professional, amateur.

Q Well, you would agree that there's rules with the USEF that define amateur and professional, correct?
A For sure. That he's not aware of. And again, I explained the pros and cons. Technically, if you are paying me to take care of your horse, whether you're paying me to ride it or not, I should not show in the amateurs. I was very clear on that. But it makes the horses more valuable. These horses are probably not going to be show horses, where we're going week after week. We're going to show them once or twice to sell them. End of story. In my mind, it's justifiable, if it makes the horses more profitable. And right or wrong, it's irrelevant now. I gave up my amateur status. So it doesn't really matter.

Q At the time that you entered into the purchase agreement with Michael Newman and yourself, for the purchase of Flemmingh, you knew that being a an amateur meant you could not receive a commission?
A Yes. I had -- at that time, that is why I did not horse show. Until I horse showed, I had to decide if I was going to give up my amateur status or not. But at the time, I told Michael Newman that I was keeping it intact.

Q Did you tell him that your husband, Jacob Williams, was purchasing the four horses for you as a lot? And I don't mean "a lot," as many. A lot of horses.
A Yes, I did. To keep my amateur status.

Q And why didn't you simply have Michael Newman write a purchase agreement to Marc Buck, being that he was the real purchaser of the horse?
A Again, I was trying to keep my amateur status intact, to make his investment more profitable.

Q Did you tell Mr. Buck at the time that you created this purchase agreement that we've just made Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 1 -- did you tell him at that time, Mr. Buck, I'm giving you this purchase agreement, and it says $75,000, but the truth is it's really only 65,000 and I'm collecting the other 10?
A No, I did not state that outright.

Q And why not?
A He never asked, No. 1. And he was very aware that I made commissions on sales of horses. End of story. That is the only way I make money.

Q Why didn't you just tell him? What would be the harm telling him that --
A I didn't not tell him on purpose. It just never came up. The horse was $75,000. It was worth at least 150. It's a no-brainer. I didn't charge him a hundred for the horse, which most people in this business would have. I don't think I did anything wrong. I made a $10,000 commission on a $65,000 horse. Anybody else would have charged him more for the horse. I have done nothing but break my neck for him, nothing.

Q Well, on this particular purchase agreement, does it say anywhere on this purchase agreement, under "Intent," that he -- that you are collecting 10 percent at the time of this purchase?
A No. That's not outlined in the agreement.

Q But you did put in there that when the horses sold you would receive 10 percent?
A Yes, I did.

Q So you added one in but left the other out?
A It's an oversight. This is the first time I had used this purchase agreement. I devised it sitting right there in the kitchen with Marc Buck, because he wanted a contract.

Q Why did you not put your name Heather Williams on this purchase agreement?
A Because I had already given him my driver's license and realized that my name was no longer Heather Williams, it was still Heather Hargett. I did not have a driver's license that said Heather Williams. I was not going to fabricate one. He asked for a copy of my driver's license before he ever bought a horse. So I gave it to him.

Q Well --
A I was in the process of trying to change my name. I've already stated that.

Q The bill of sale from Newman Equestrian was made to the name of Heather Williams?
A Again, I was trying to change my name. I had not received a copy of a driver's license that said Heather Williams.

Q Okay. Well -- but I'm trying to correlate why you would -- why you would create a purchase agreement within the same period of time that you're receiving a bill of sale where you have two different names?
A I'm sorry. Say that again.

Q Well, the bill of sale is dated August 7th.
A Yes.

Q Now, actually, Marc Buck purchased the horse on August 2nd.
A You got to talk to Michael Newman about that.

Q So Michael Newman is the one that put in August 7th on here?
A Yes. I was sent that.

Q And was Flemmingh seven years old at the time?
A Yes.

Q And is he a Dutch Warmblood?
A Yes.

Q And is he 16.2?
A Roughly.

Q And --
A It probably said -- the purchase agreement says, "approximately." I don't know what --

Q Now, on the purchase agreement that was dated August 1st, why didn't you call Mr. Newman and tell him, please give me a proper bill of sale in the name of Heather Hargett, that is my name?
A I was in the process -- okay. One more time, I was in the process of changing my name. I was waiting for the paperwork. I had done the paperwork at the beginning of July or in June. I was waiting for the paperwork. I thought the name change was already in process. However, with Mr. Buck, when he asked me for a driver's license, I couldn't very well give him one that said Williams when I didn't have the proper paperwork to go get one that said Williams. It's just a timing issue. You can't make something out of it that it's not.

Q Why didn't you tell Mr. Buck that you are going by the name of Heather Williams and you're going to be doing this deal with Flemmingh and Silco under the name of Heather Williams?
A Because my driver's license said Heather Hargett.

Q Let me show you this bill of sale. And tell me if that's accurate to the bill of sale on Flemmingh.
A I'm assuming so.

Q We got it from you, so that's why I'm asking.
A I'm assuming so. Yeah.

Q Omitted, going over the documentation that requested. Heahter had brought nohting with her
A I will bring whatever I have for Flemmingh with me. (on the next deposition)

Q Do you have anything that involves his time in quarantine or the flight arrangements?
A I probably do. I think they come with some type of paperwork that says that their blood work was fine.

Q And you've told me already that you don't have the radiographs?
A Yes. I never did. Again, it's something that I'm -- I don't have a place to even read the radiographs, much less a veterinarian degree to do so.

Q Have you made any efforts, up to this point, to contact Michael Newman, who advised me he still had them? So I'd like to know if you made any arrangements to get a copy?
A Yes. And actually, he told me that once the horses get sold, they delete the files.

Q Well, that wouldn't be true, because he did send them to you six weeks later when you needed them, correct?
A Well, he said that when they send them to Palm Beach Equine, that they no longer have the x-rays, because I did try to obtain the x-rays. Alecia even asked me again to please try to obtain the x-rays.

Q And did you make any effort to secure the x-rays from Dr. Barber?
A I have made a phone call. I have not gotten a response yet. But I was also trying -- my understanding, when I talked to vets -- my personal vet, who I typically use, would normally give me something -- some type of written whatever, I've looked at these x-rays, blah, blah, blah. I've not received it, and I have followed up on it. And I'll continue to do so and hopefully get something in writing.

Q Who is the typical vet that you use?
A If I have my way, I try to use Dr. Ober, but he's very hard to get.

Q Ober?
A Yes.

Q Who is affiliated with?
A The USEF. He's the Olympic team vet.

Q Where is he?
A He works for Dr. Steel.

Q And where is he housed out of?
A The office is in New York, but he resides in Virginia.

Q With respect to -- the same question I have with respect to the documents as it relates to Silco. Have you made any efforts to obtain the DVDs or paperwork on Silco?
A When I discussed with Michael Newman that the horse had a problem that appears to be old, something that was prior to me receiving the horse, instead of trying to do anything other than send the horse back, because I deemed the horse as questionable saleability-wise, he and his contact in Europe immediately stepped up and offered to take the horse back and let me pick out a different one. Probably younger, but for sure more salable.

Q And why did that not come to fruition?
A Because you guys called -- called Michael Newman up and pretty much harassed him and made him feel not so happy about the whole situation, and he doesn't want to follow through now. He doesn't want to do it to help Marc.

Q Does it have anything to do with the fact that you still owed them $2,500 and he refused to entertain taking the horse back until he received that money?
A No. He was told that the $2,500 would be received at the time the horse was going back. But because of the virus, I could not send the horse back until once January 1st had come and gone. At that point, he -- he told me that his contact in Europe had been injured and was in the hospital and that we were -- that all plans were put on hold; that he was assuming that we weren't going to follow through. I said, "No. Absolutely I would like to follow through." But with the virus, I was unable to do anything. The horse was not allowed to leave.

Q Well, horses were leaving Wellington every day, weren't they?
A They were not supposed to.

Q Under whose rule?
A It was a voluntary quarantine, but that was in the best interest of all the horses. I went to several meetings pertaining to that, and I was instructed by my vet not to let horses on or off the property.

Q And what vet is that?
A Dr. Kim Schneider.

Q So why didn't the horse go on January 1st? Why wasn't it sent back?
A Well, the quarantine wasn't lifted at that 14 point.

Q To your knowledge?
A To my knowledge, the quarantine was not lifted at that point. That's why I scheduled a trip to Europe, so that I could make my time somewhat productive. Yeah. The last case was diagnosed, I believe, right before Christmas, which 21 days after that. So, no, quarantine had not been lifted.

Q Well, the horse -- the quarantine was not an official quarantine in the State of Florida, was it?
A No. But it was in the best interest of all the horses and the health and wellbeing of the horses. And pretty much everybody agreed. So when my vet tells me to stay put, I stay put. That is their professional expertise. That is what they're there for.

Q And do you have anything in writing where you talked to Dr. Schneider about that?
A No. But I feel sure she would have told you the same thing. It's pretty much public knowledge.

Q What was wrong with Silco?
A There's some scar tissue in his check ligament area on his left front leg.

Q And how is it that you came to know that it had scar tissue on the check ligament?
A He got prepurchased and I was told that he flunked the vet because the scar tissue and his check ligament. Typically, horses are not ultrasounded during prepurchases. I followed up with my vet. A lot of times people want an out. If horses aren't totally perfect, they'll pick on something. Dr. Schneider said, "You can't really sell this horse." She said, "Its check ligament ultrasounded like garbage," I believe was her terminology. So I promptly got on the phone with Michael and tried to rectify the situation.

Q Did you tell Michael that the horse was actually owned by somebody else with --
A I think we've established that. No. I was trying to keep my amateur status. Again, Michael would do things like that to help me, not to help Marc Buck. A lot of times when you tell people that people are buying horses as investments, then they hike up the price, because then they realize they're more valuable than what you're paying for. So, no, I kept confidentiality for very specific reasons. Not to fraud Mr. Buck and not to raud Michael Newman, but to make sure we got the best prices for the horses and that he handled his responsibility at the other end of the deal properly, which he was prepared to do.

Q Did you ask Michael Newman why the check ligament issue, which was evidently old, and had been there, had not been detected by the vet in Germany?
A Yes. And he and I both concur on the fact that most horses aren't ultrasounded and probably it don't show up there because the horse hadn't been jumping as much as he had jumped here. We were trying to get him ready to be an equitation horse, and we were diligent about pursuing his career that way. And through three months of, you know, not overly training, but some rigorous training, it showed up. It was not evident when he first got there.

Q But it was clearly old damage?
A Clearly old damage. Which was why I immediately contacted Mr. Newman to try to rectify the situation. And I will say, generally speaking, most horse people go, Well, you buy it as-is. And they were willing to try to help us resolve the situation.

Q When did you contact Mr. Newman about this?
A I would have to look at my phone records, but pretty much right away. After I talked to Marc and we discussed our options of what we should do for salability and the sake of money, I was encouraging him to -- let's try to send the horse back. He was not wanting to do that. And at that time, we had started negotiations with me trying to buy him out of both horses, in which case I would have just sent the horse back and gotten a different one.

Q At what point did you -- actually, who had done the pre -- what trainer had -- or agent had arranged the prepurchase examination on Silco?
A It's irrelevant. I will get a vet document saying that they prepurchased that horse. I'm not having you call my customers. I'm just not.

Q All right. Ms. Hargett, I'm trying to be understandable. Let me finish. And I'm trying to be as respectful as I can. My client owns half of Silco, and you represented it was prepurchased. He has every right to know who did the prepurchase examination, whether it's your client or not. If you're going to withhold that information, as we sit here today, I'm going to ask the judge to sanction you to pay for all of this time here today and as many times as we need to get your deposition.
A I'm not releasing my clients' names. That's confidential information.

Q What vet -- it's not confidential.
A I was not -- I don't know what vet did it. That's why I had my own vet come and do the work. I was not there.

Q Where was the horse?
A The horse went to the horse show to get vetted.

Q Who took the horse to the horse show?
A My groom.

Q Your groom?
A Yes.

Q Who is your groom?
A Olivia. She is no longer my groom.

Q What's her last name?
A I don't know her last name. It's not a legal last name, I'm sure.

Q Do you have payroll records on her?
A No. Paid her in cash.

Q Where is she now?
A Working in Wellington. I let her go. I only have two horses.

Q Where was the horse taken?
A To the horse show.

Q To whom? Who was receiving it at the horse show?
A The vet.

Q What vet
A I don't know. I was not there.

Q So you just sent Silco --
A Yes. To the horse show to get vetted. Yes.

Q Let me finish, please.
A You're asking me a question I've already answered.

Q Let me finish. You sent Silco with Olivia to the Littlewood horse show to be vetted, is that correct?
A Yes.

Q How did Olivia know who to report to?
A She went to the vet station. She hand-walked the horse over there, went to the vet station, and came back.

Q Who was the horse being vetted by?
A I'm not giving you my client's information until I've talked to them. I will talk to them this week. And if they are willing to have their information released, I will give it to you then.

Q Did you tell Dr. Kim Schneider who reviewed the horse?
A Probably not. It was irrelevant. I asked her -- I didn't give her any information, because I didn't want her to have a predisposed impression of the horse. I wanted her to evaluate the horse as-is.

Q And she evaluated it?
A Yes. She said, "His check ligament ultrasounds like garbage."

Q And if you had done a prepurchase examination, when the horse initially had come, before Mr. Buck put his money on it, that would have been detected, would it not have?
A No, it would not have. Because we would not have ultrasounded the horse. The check ligament didn't show up until much later. We would be in the same boat we're in right now.

Q You can't say that, can you?
A Yes, I can.

Q Let me finish.
A Do not put words in my mouth, and do not accuse me. I will walk out of here right now.

Q You're welcome to do anything you want to do. Let me finish. You cannot say what another vet would have detected on examination, if he would have found the check ligament?
A I can tell you that Dr. Griffith ran his hands over that horse, and watched it jog, and should have put his hands on that horse's legs. And if he didn't detect it, nobody else would have. And if the horse should have been ultrasounded, he should have said so right then and there, before he signed his name to a $75,000 insurance policy. That's what I know. Do not put that on me.

Q So you're blaming Dr. Griffith for doing an insurance exam improperly?
A No, I did not say that. I'm saying, if there's blame here, you can't put it on me. I'm not a licensed vet. I had a vet review the horse, and, no, it did not show up.

Q Well, Dr. Barber didn't review the horse.
A Did I say Dr. Barber? I said, "Dr. Griffith." He put his hands on the horse. He didn't see the check ligament. It did not show up until much later. Do you think I would have taken my commission money and put my money into that horse if I felt that there was something wrong with it? It doesn't do me any good to sell Marc Buck any horses that I can't sell. That is how I make money. Apparently, we're very unclear on that. This has been a big waste of time and effort. I would much prefer to have horses that I could sell. I did not intentionally sell him horses that one pulled the shoe off after he purchased it and the other had a check ligament. But I did try to rectify the situation, which I've now been stopped from doing. So if he's made his bed, he's going to have to lie in it. Do you see any report from Dr. Griffith on his bill about a check ligament? No.

Q When was the horse vetted where you had a concern over the check ligament?
A I don't know the date. You'd have to look at the bill. I'm sure you're looking at it right now.

Q You took Flemmingh to Palm Beach Equine Clinic and Silco, is that correct?
A Silco never went to the clinic.

Q Silco was seen at the --
A At the farm.

Q Okay. You registered both Flemmingh and Silco as you being the owner, Heather Williams, is that correct?
A It was just on my account.

Q Let me try this again. Where it said, "Owner," on Flemmingh and Silco --
A I didn't write that in there. No, I did not write that in there. It was on my account.

Q Okay. Did you ever tell them that the horses were owned by somebody else?
A Okay. Again -- I'm sure you're tired of typing this -- I was trying to keep my amateur status.

Q Well, how would the fact that these horses were owned by Marc Buck affect your amateur status?
A Because I can't then go show them in the amateurs, if they're owned by someone else.

Q So you did tell Palm Beach Equine that you were the owner of the horses?
A Actually, no. It was never discussed.

Q Well, you got all the paperwork that has your name on it, Heather Williams.
A They were treating the horses for me. But I never told them I was the owner. It never actually was a question. I did not lie. I just didn't tell them that Marc Buck was the owner. Marc Buck would not give them a credit card to work on the horses anyway, so it would have been on my account, regardless, despite the fact that he signed a purchase agreement that held him accountable for the expenses.

Q Well, you would agree, don't you, that he should know about the care and treatment that the horses are receiving?
A Oh. He will. And you will see it in the e-mails next week, when I bring the e-mails, because he was very aware of what was going on with the horses; that the horse lived at the clinic for four days and that I went there daily to check on him and so on and so effort.

Q How long was it from the time that Silco showed up on the prepurchase as having a problem to the time that he made it to the clinic to have --
A He never went to the clinic.

Q I'm going to correct that. We all make mistakes in what we're saying. Let me try this again. How long between the time that he had a prepurchase by an unknown vet at Littlewood Horse Show and the time that Kim Schneider saw Silco?
A Days. Just days.

Q Okay. And when did you tell Mr. Buck that Silco did not pass the prepurchase examination?
A I'd have to look. I'm sure as soon as I tried to resolve the situation, to find out what our options were, I discussed them with him. I did not keep him in the dark as to what the information was.

Q Fair to say that you would not have told him until after Dr. Schneider verified the check ligament issue?
A For sure. Because there's no reason to raise alarm, if there's nothing wrong with the horse. I wanted to find out if there was truly something wrong with the horse, because the horse had never been unsound with us, and he was not unsound the day of the prepurchase. I was told that it was probably an old injury; it may never come up again. But as far as a prepurchase of $150,000, most people weren't going to buy a horse that had that kind of ultrasound. Therefore, I felt for a sale horse, that's bad, and we need to try and get one that's salable.

Q What was the price at the time that the prepurchase examination was being done?
A 150.

Q If the folks had opted to purchase Silco at that time, how would the check have been written?
A Marc Buck actually asked me to receive the wire and for me to pay him in cash so he didn't have to pay taxes on it. I told him I would have to confer with my accountant before I could do that. I wasn't sure if I could get out that kind of cash. But typically, my standard procedure is to have the customer paid by wire and then they pay me. I don't usually receive money for horses that are not mine. Even though I own half of that one, I would have been comfortable sending the money to Marc Buck, had he not wanted to shaft the IRS.

Q Well --
A Which I have, you know.

Q Why would you sit here and accuse him of shafting the IRS?
A Because I've been accused of it, and I --

Q Why are you alluding to the fact he wants to shaft the IRS? Do you know why he wanted to ask for his portion --
A He told me because he didn't want to pay taxes on it.

Q And you have that somewhere in writing?
A No. He told me that in person.

Q And this is the same prepurchase that you refused to tell me who was the person doing the prepurchase?
A I'm not at liberty to discuss my client's information unless I've talked to them first.

Q You understand that you had a duty to Marc Buck as the co-owner of Silco, correct?
A Yes, I do. But I don't have to give him all of my business contacts. No, I don't. I'm in the horse business. Marc Buck is not.

Q So why would you be concerned about him going around your back?
A Because he already has. He's already slandered me. He slandered me right on the Internet. I have proof of it and will be filing suit against it.

Q Okay.
A That is why. That is specifically why I am not willing to give you specific names, because I don't trust him. And, quite honestly, I'm not sure I trust you. I'm unaware at this point. I'm undecided. But I know for sure I don't trust him. And he's in the room, and, therefore, just not -- I'm just not comfortable with that. Until I am sure -- maybe if I had a gag order signed or something, saying that you can't go contact these people unless such and such -- maybe I would feel more comfortable. But that's not the case right now.

Q Well, we're not giving you a gag order.
A Exactly. So we can play tug of war here.

Q That's fine. You knew in November, a month before the virus hit, that Silco had a check ligament injury. Why did not, in that 30 days before the virus issue even arose, return that horse to Michael Newman?
A Because it wasn't going to Michael Newman. It was going to back to Europe.

Q And who would have been responsible for paying the fees to ship --
A I would have been.

Q Did you make any arrangements to do that?
A I was waiting, actually, for an exchange horse. I was waiting for a videotape. Mr. Newman went to Europe towards the end of November, and when he returned, he was going to send me a tape. At that point, the virus was already in effect and we were no longer able to ship the horse until much, much after that. It was just an unfortunate set of circumstances.

Q Now, let's go through the issues as it relates to Silco and the purchase agreement. Do I take it that your position is the same with respect to the purchase agreement from Mr. Newman -- I'm sorry. Let me strike that. I take it your testimony is the same with respect to why you devised a purchase agreement for Silco to Marc Buck in your name, Heather Hargett, is all the same reasons, because you didn't want to use the Williams name, you felt it wasn't legal yet?
A Not that I didn't want to. But again, I provided Mr. Buck with my driver's license that still said Hargett. I was waiting for the paperwork that I had done online that said Williams, to go and get a current driver's license that said Williams, which, hindsight, never came and was not filed properly. And I consulted an attorney to file it properly for me.

Q Why don't you take a look at this purchase agreement and tell me if that's the purchase agreement that you prepared on Silco.
A Yes.

Q Now, with respect to Silco, what was the purchase price of Silco?
A On this it says, "$75,000."

Q What was the real purchase price of Silco?
A As we stated before, once already, $65,000. I made a $10,000 commission.

Q Okay. And the $10,000 you put towards your purchase -- or your portion of Silco?
A Yes

Q And on here, you made an agreement that the intent was as an investment horse between the two of you?
A Yes.

Q And it would be marketed for full retail sale upon receipt, correct?
A Yes.

Q What was meant by "full retail sale"?
A Meaning that it was going to be on the market for the utmost value that we felt was appropriate for that horse.

Q Who -- and based on this agreement, this purchase agreement, where did you have that you dictated who could set the purchase price for the horse?
A I legally cannot sell a horse that he and I own together without us coming to a decision as to what the horse should be priced at. But Marc, not being a horse person, looked to me for those answers.

Q Is that why you priced the horse at 150,000?
A Yes. That's what I told him when we bought the horse, when we entered into the agreement, that I would probably put the horse on the market for 150 and that any offers I would consult with him. Just like when somebody wanted to come look at Flemmingh for a hundred. I didn't show it to him, but I did ask him: Can I show the horse for a hundred? And whether I agree or not, I can't do it unless he says it's okay. Therefore, the horse did not get tried for a hundred because he said no.

Q With respect to Silco, we know that you priced him at 150, is that correct?
A Yes.

Q Did you ever price him to anyone else for a price any different than 150 during the time that he was with you?
A No. I think one person had 125. And I did let them look at it, but as a second horse, because we were pretty sure it was not going to be suitable. I gave them another horse to try to compare to someone else.

Q With respect to Silco, how many people had tried Silco during the time that you had had him?
A Probably only three or four.

Q And when I say, "People tried Silco," let me define that. I understand in the horse business trainers will come and look at a horse and think, maybe let me just take a look at it.
A Right.

Q When I say, "tried," I mean bona fide purchasers where the client showed up to the farm to ride the horse --
A Yes.

Q -- truthfully that were going to buy the horse.
A Three or four. There were many more trainers that looked at the horse and had thoughts and plans. But three or four actually rode the horse.

Q And of the three or four, one of them did a prepurchase exam?
A Yes.

Q Now, you learned after this prepurchase examination was done, that there was a potential flaw in Silco?
A Yes.

Q And it is not a flaw that Michael Newman gave you any warning that existed. At least if -- if we sit here today and we find out that Michael Newman knew about the check ligament, he didn't give you any indication?
A No, he did not. The only information I received regarding the prepurchase of the horses was that Silco had -- the right front ankle has a small chip in it. Again, the vet deemed it outside the joint, not in a place that was any concern. It flexed just fine. He's an older horse. Don't worry about it. Other than that, the horses all passed the vet very well.

Q What leg had the check ligament?
A Left front.

Q Now, after you learned this information, you then took the horse to -- Dr. Schneider came to you to do the ultrasound?
A Yes.

Q At that point, you now confirmed that this horse had an issue that was going to preclude a future sale?
A Yes. Other people probably would sell the horse. But I explained to Mr. Buck that I do not feel comfortable -- somebody will come back and sue us if we know that that horse has that issue and he somehow breaks in the middle of jumping and/or so forth. That maybe he could get sold as a dressage horse. The best option for us was to send him back to Europe. If the Europeans want to sham somebody, not our business. Let's get a different one. We don't want the future aggravation of that. The horse may be fine. I was told the horse may be fine for the rest of his life. It may never cause a problem. But it's an unknown.

Q Based on your opinion of the fact at this time -- at the time that Silco was there, you owned half of him, Mr. Buck owned half of him, you-all needed to sell this horse, what would the value of that horse really have been now that you had this information?
A Far less than what we paid for it. I didn't deem him very valuable at all, which was why I wanted to send him back. Because we could get a four- or five-year-old that was valuable, that was a $150,000 horse here in the U.S., and short of the time involved, much better for he and I as an investment.

Q And I understand that Mr. Newman was aspirational, telling you he would take the horse back. Did you ever get anything in writing from Mr. Newman that he would take the horse back?
A No. Unfortunately, most of my communications with Mr. Newman has been over the phone.

Q Did you ever get a DVD? You knew this horse -- and I presume you called him almost the same day Dr. Schneider did this exam?
A I didn't call him that day. I actually did talk to some other people, some other horse professionals: You know, if you were bringing a customer to me, and I presented this horse, with this issue, what do you think? I tried to get a general sense of what other people would do in the situation. Tried to outline my various options. And then, truthfully, I called Michael and I did my best to talk him into taking the horse back, because a lot of people don't do that. I asked things like, Can I trade him for one you have here now? No. We don't do that, dah, dah, dah. Then I brought up the ultrasound. I said, "This is an old past injury. This is kind of a problem." I was very polite but diligent. And so he called his contact in Europe and they agreed to take the horse. And if I could get the horse there, they would send another one over.

Q Okay. Now, you're going to have to pay the expenses to fly Silco back?
A Relative to losing all the money, yeah.

Q Well, if he goes back on his own, it's somewhere more than the $5,000, based on the lot that came over for Mr. Newman. You understand that, correct?
A Yes.

Q It would have been probably somewhere between 10- and $12,000 to get Silco back to Germany?
A No.

Q With the quarantine and the requirements necessary with his shots and all the other information?
A No. Because he was up-to-date on his shots.

Q What was it going to cost?
A It was going to cost $2,000 for quarantine and approximately 5 grand to ship him. So about 7 grand. Then another 7 grand to get the new one here. So there were expenses involved. But better than having no money. Again, I broke my neck to try to make that happen.

Q And there was no guarantee that the horse that you were going to get was going to be any better than Silco, other than the x-rays and the same scenario you already went through?
A There is never a guaranty. We buy these horses as-is. And unfortunately, that's part of the business. But I felt like I handled the situation the best that I possibly could. There was some promise that it could be better rather than just sucking really bad.

Q So at the time that Silco was in your possession, before any opportunity to go to Germany, he really didn't have a value, then, at that point?
A In my mind, no.

Q And it would be fair to say that now that you are an agent and selling the horse, and the fact you are now aware of the existence of that injury, you would have had to have disclosed that in any future sale?
A Yes. I did not feel comfortable not telling somebody that that horse had that injury. I feel like that sets yourself up for future lawsuits.

Q You would agree with me that that is necessary; that in the horse industry, the burden is on you --
A Yes.

Q -- to give that information?
A Yes. Mr. Buck brought a customer to look at the horses prior to me leaving to go to Europe. I don't know if it was an appraiser or actual customer. But he specifically asked me, via e-mail, not to disclose their medical history to her. And I said, "I can't do that. I'm not comfortable with that. If she's buying the horse to be a jumping horse, that has to be disclosed. If she's buying the horse to be a dressage horse, and it's going to fly around at home and have fun on, whole different ball game. That probably would never affect his life. If she's buying it to be a jumping horse, it needs to be disclosed, because that is an issue."

Q And I take it you told her that when she came to see the horse?
A I let Marc handle most of the discussion with the lady. It was his customer.

Q Okay.
A I didn't discuss money or anything. When 25 she asked, "How much?" I said, "You can talk about it with Mr. Buck. I get 10 percent." I said, "With Silco, he and I will need to agree on a price, we own him half-and-half, but you can discuss it with Marc."

Q Now, you're telling me that Mr. Newman has now reneged on the deal to take Silco back?
A Well, I think so much time has past, and he doesn't really want to be involved in this type of lawsuit. And again, the gentleman that he deals with over there had been hurt. I don't know if it was a riding accident, but had been injured in Europe, which the story was translated incorrectly for Mr. Buck. Michael Newman was never hurt. His contact in Europe was hurt and in the hospital. So my understanding from Michael, at this point in time, is, no, that option does not still exist. The horses are out of my care. He doesn't know what's gone on with them, so on and so forth.

Q What arrangements have you attempted to make with Mr. Buck to buy out his portion of Silco, if at all?
A He and I had a phone conversation one afternoon and that option came up. And he said, "You know, if I make like 25,000 profit on my money, maybe I would be okay with that and I could treat this as a loan and it doesn't matter what happens with the horses. I don't have to deal with the aggravation anymore of worrying about them." And I said, "That's fine. I understand. You know, we can discuss that."He communicated with me on the e-mail, which you'll get to read at some point. He was going to go to the bank and find out about the -- some type of loan process or whatever. And I questioned him. I said, "I thought you were holding this loan, not the bank? I'm doing this to help you." Because when you enter into an investment, it's like a piece of property. If you want to bail in the middle of the market being crappy, you don't get to make money. Like, you lose money. I said, "I'm doing this to help you out. I believe in the project. I believe in those horses. I am happy to pay you out." He made what I thought was a ridiculous suggestion to the tune of $228,000 for the loan. I said, "You have 137,000 some-odd dollars into these horses. I'm happy to pay you that plus $25,000." Pretty much, end of discussion. I was very blunt about it. I thought what he proposed was ludicrous.

He couldn't afford to pay their bills, was not able to pay their bills. And what I should have done, hindsight, was the minute he couldn't pay his bills was said, Take your horses and go. I wouldn't be in this mess. But I didn't. I stuck it out and didn't bail on him. I was going to try and see the project through and try to help him out. Now, all it has done is cause a lot of drama. I felt like the offer I made him was pretty good, considering when you go into an investment -- it's like buying stock on the stock market. If you buy the stock and it goes way up, it may crash the next day. You don't know. But if you want to bail when it crashes, you lose money. I'm not asking him to lose money. I was even willing to pay him extra so that he made a profit. But he's unwilling to -- he's unwilling to negotiate on the money. And for him to think that I should pay him $228,000, he's just crazy. I'm sorry. That's just crazy. I would never do that.

Q Now, you --
A Why would I?

Q Now, the -- I'm sorry?
A Again, I still own half of Silco, in addition to that, and I would also have to pay the horse's expenses, insurance, so on and so forth. I would have over $300,000 wrapped up in those horses, easily, because I already have like 45, 50 in Silco. You add that up. I'm up to $300,000 for those horses. Who would do that?

Q Now -- I'm sorry. Were you done?
A Yeah. Sorry.

Q Now, the investment -- or the opportunity that you wanted to buy him out, would have required a long-term loan, is that correct?
A Yes.

Q So he would have really had to entrust in you and your finances, to be sure that, you know, two, three years from now those monies were still coming in?
A Yes, he would have. But he had the horses as collateral. He could come and get them at any point in time, if need be. Up to this point, I had done nothing but be helpful. There's no reason that he would assume that I wouldn't have paid him. I billed him like I told him I would. I let the medical expenses be on my credit card for a while. Things like that. There's no reason he shouldn't have trusted that I would have taken good care of those horses, gotten them sold and paid the bill, like I said I would. If I entered into a legal agreement -- I mean, come on.

Q Well, did -- well, the -- did you ever offer to make a cash out with him for Silco? I'm just asking about Silco.
A No, I did not. Because I'm not liquid like that. I don't have the liquid means to do that. It's not really an option.

Q So really the only way that you could have really done a buyout would have been through some type of loan structure?
A Yes. And again, that was suggested by him, not by myself.

Q Okay. Now, with respect to Flemmingh -- let me just check my time here. We have a little bit more time. Other than the three to four people who tried Silco, what -- did anyone else ever come to ride him, other than -- I know you rode him. Did anybody else come to ride him, to help you ride him?
A Silco? Like Shoshana might have ridden him a couple of times. Andrew probably rode him a couple of times. Just sometimes it's good to watch the horses from the ground, see what you're feeling. I had fallen and hurt myself once, and so I had people riding the horses at that time. But never just Joe Shmoe off the street.

Q I understand. So maybe Shoshana may have ridden Silco?
A A handful of times, yes. I know for sure she did. She loved him.

Q How about Andrew?
A Same thing. It's a lovely horse to ride.

Q Who else would have hopped on the horse?
A I don't think anybody other than people trying him. I'm kind of finicky about that.

Q Okay. Now, you had sent numerous e-mails to Marc, over the time that Silco was there, telling him people like Frank Madden were coming?
A Yes.

Q And I'm trying to think of the names that were in the e-mails.
A Andre Dignalle (phonetic). Andre came and rode the horse.

Q And when did Andre come ride the horse?
A In September.

Q Now, do you think that Andre would remember coming and trying your horse? If I were to call him today and say, Did you try this horse --
A One thing I'm going to try and do is get an affidavit from him saying that he came and tried the horse.

Q And who else came and tried the horse like that?
A I'm not giving you my clients' information, but there was other people.

Q I completely just -- I disagree with your position, because you have an obligation in this investment. You had to show due diligence. You sent e-mails saying that certain people came and looked at the horses. I can sit here and pull them out. Who came -- who did you tell him were coming to look at Silco and Flemmingh?
A Frank never made it, because the horse was deemed unsound at that point. I'm not -- I don't want to stick my neck out and show the horse to Frank Madden for 150,000 when I know it doesn't pass the vet. We didn't get that far.

Q That's what I'm trying to understand.
A Other customers were interested at that point, so we persuade that.

Q I'm not trying to trick you. I'm trying to establish the information that you have put in e-mails and things of that sort. And if they didn't come, so be it.
A Right. Ken Smith came and looked at the horse. He was not looking for an equitation horse at the time.

Q So I understood it was Ken and Emily Smith who vetted the horse. Is that correct?
A That is not correct.

Q So Ken came and looked at the horse and it wasn't --
A Yes.

Q -- what he was looking for?
A That's not what he was looking for. That's not really his field of expertise. He typically deals with mostly hunters.

Q And that was on Silco you're talking about?
A Yes.

Q How about Flemmingh?
A Yes. Ken and Emily liked Flemmingh. They never actually got to see me ride it, because from the day they saw it -- we showed it to them in the stall and that was it. Which I told Mr. Buck. But they still liked the horse, just seeing it in the stall.

Q Tell me, who else -- and I'm going to sit and dig through the e-mails.
A That's fine. Richard Kunkle brought a customer by.

Q Wait.
A They actually rode.

Q Richard who?
A Kunkle.

Q Spell the last name.
A I have no idea. K-U-N-K-L-E.

Q Okay.
A And truthfully, I think that's his last name. I will double-check on that. He brought a customer by from Louisiana. I have no idea who the people are. I have no idea how to get in touch with them. They rode the horse. They trotted one circle, got off, because that was the first day that it limped.

Q And that was Silco or Flemmingh?
A Flemmingh. They did not look at Silco, because they were looking for a hunter.

Q And you had deemed Silco to be more of a jumper?
A No. An equitation horse.

Q What about Silco made you feel he was going to be an equitation horse?
A He was lovely to ride. Absolutely love to ride. And he wanted you to ride him. For me, he's not a hunter, because you can't drop the reins and let him meld to the jumps. He wants you to ride him. Other people can make him a hunter, but that was not my thing.

Q Who else came that you had talked to Mr. Buck about? I'm trying to dig through and find names here. But who else?
A Yeah. Lindy Esau. These are the agents. Again, I'm not giving you customers' names.

Q Whomever connection came --
A That's fine.

Q -- that's fine with me. Lindy -- what was her last name?
A Esau.

Q Spell it.
A I have no idea.

Q E-S-A-U?
A Yeah. Maybe. I'll find out.

Q And what was --
A She brought another customer by. She brought her daughter by for her other daughter out in California. I mean, there were people that tried the horse. The one customer really liked him, but he was a little too green. He needed some work. There were a couple -- you know, there was always something cooking on him. I had a dressage lady come and ride him. I could not tell you what her name was. If she walked in the room, I don't know if I would recognize her. I could tell you she drove a yellow Hummer. Short of that, I didn't really know her. She came. She put her dressage saddle on, rode, said he was lovely, but didn't pursue it.

Q Anybody else that would have looked at the horses?
A I'll have to rack my brain. I don't know. There were several people that I felt like looked at the horse but were probably not legitimate people. So I don't feel like they're worth mentioning.

Q Well, if they looked at them, I'd like to know who they are.
A Yeah. Just -- I'd have to sit and think about it some more. But that's the core group.

Q Did Todd Minikus ever look at them?
A No, he never saw that one.

Q Now, I presume that your testimony is the same as it relates to the bill of sale of Silco, as you testified earlier to Flemmingh, that you felt that the bill of sale needed to be in your name to protect your amateur status?
A Yes.

Q And you agree that you had taken -- well, let me -- let me ask you as straight as I can. What was the actual price of Silco?
A 65,000.

Q So the actual price was 65, but you were selling him at 75?
A Yes.

Q And how much of your money actually went into Silco, 27,000 -- or actually, 25 and the other 2,500 still owed?
A Yes.

Q Make sure that's the bill of sale that applies to Silco.
A Yes. I know you've referenced this 7th day of August. I don't know why he printed the 7th, but he did. And I know the horse wasn't paid for until the 11th, because that's when his insurance started. I think it was just common error. He probably presented both bill of sales at the same time. That's just a guess. You'll have to ask him.

Q Was Travis paid for during this same time frame?
A No. Later.

Q Later. Okay. How much later?
A A good two weeks, probably.

Q Okay.
A It was -- it was very -- it was very close to being on the line of me having to take the horse back.

Q So Flemmingh was the first horse to be sold, technically?
A Yes.

Q Silco was the second horse, technically?
A Yes.

Q And third was Preston?
A Travis. Preston was not paid for until September.

Q So Preston was way down the line?
A Preston, when he arrived, I signed a promissory note to make payments on Preston, because he was three years old. We were not really interested in buying him, but once he arrived, we decided it was nice enough horse to have, as far as age. It was going to take a little time to get the money organized. So because the other three were getting bought, we set up payment arrangements, and then Shoshana followed through with those. I was not really interested in buying a three-year-old. It's too long-term of a project.

Q Is it fair to say, then, that Silco was not technically owned or released from ownership from Michael Newman until Travis was paid for, because you owed that $10,000 of the commission on Travis?
A The bill of sale says differently.

Q I understand. But in technicality, was it more like Travis is getting sold, so, therefore, credit me for this?
A Yeah. This is the part that gets me and that I really want you two to understand. I would have much rather just had the $35,000 or whatever and not owned part of Silco, if I thought he was hurt.

Q I understand that. I clearly understand no one wants to buy a broken animal.
A That's just it. And I feel like there is no appreciation given to the fact that I was getting the horse returned to Europe. That is hard to do. Most people don't do that. Most people are like, you know, (indicating), have a nice day.

Q But Michael Newman never really got there, though, did he?
A What do you mean?

Q I mean, you can't sit here and say for sure that when push came to shove, that horse was going to go back?
A I was pretty confident it was going back, because they wanted to sell me more horses. I'm young. I've been in this business forever. It's in their best interest. It's not in their best interest to help him. He's never going to own another horse. That's probably why the horse isn't going back, because now they don't have to worry about it.

Q Well, let me tell you: Mr. Newman told me that the reason he wouldn't take the horse back was because he didn't sell the horse to Marc Buck. He sold it to Heather Williams. And therefore, Mr. Buck is a stranger to this deal. You understand that?
A Yes, I do. But I still own half of the horse.

Q Let me finish. You understand that the fact that Mr. Newman believes he sold the horse to you, and not some third party, is why he now doesn't feel he has an obligation to this man, right?
A My understanding was the horse was going back right up until you guys talked to him. He was very unhappy after your conversation. So I don't know what got said or what context it was taken in.

Q My question to you is this: You can understand that Mr. Newman didn't know who Mr. Buck was, correct?
A Yes. Of course.

Q So to get a call, out of the blue, about a man that owns a horse, is a complete shock to a man that he didn't do business with.
A Correct. I've already said, the horses were sold to me. I made a commission. I sold them to Marc.

Q Okay. Is there -- well, at the time that you were asking him to take the horse back, you and Mr. Buck owned him together?
A Yes.

Q Did you ever tell Michael, I own this horse with somebody else?
A No. I, again, have been trying to protect my amateur status.

Q Okay.
A I didn't relinquish that until January, officially.

Q Did you send anything to the USEF that you were relinquishing your amateur status?
A Yes, I did.

Q Did Missy Clark ever come look at the horse?
A No. She never made it.

Q And Andre came on September 12th of 2006. Is that what you --
A I don't know what day he came, but he came in September.

Q Well, the e-mail I'm looking at is dated September 12th. And it says, "Andre is who came today."
A Okay. Well, then, yes, I would say he came today, because he came and rode the horse and liked the horse a lot. He wanted to see the horse after indoors was done with a little more experience. But he was very impressed with the quality of the horse.

Q Now, anyone else that we haven't talked about that you showed the horses to, Silco or Flemmingh?
A Not that I feel comfortable disclosing. Just an agent. I'll have to -- again, I'll have to talk with those people and see what they --

Q Now, tell me, did you ever have a discussion with Mr. Buck with respect to the fact that the insurance policy is something that secures the sale of the horse or the value of the horse?
A I said, "It's like car insurance. It covers everything. It covers major medical, theft, loss of -- it covers the loss of the animal."

Q Now, did you make the arrangements for the policy of insurance for Mr. Buck?
A Yes.

Q In other words, did you call an agent?
A Yes.

Q Did you secure loss of use for him in that purchase?
A No. Most companies don't do loss of use anymore. They discourage it heavily.

Q But you did tell him that the policy might cover loss of use?
A No, I did not.

Q What did you tell him the insurance policy was going to cover?
A I told him it covers major medical, which covers if they get sick, if they get hurt, things like that. It covers death. It covers theft.

Q Did you tell him how much major medical was going to be covered? Did you tell him it was a limit?
A No. Because I'm not privy to that information. What I told him was my experience. My personal experience, I had a horse that had to have surgery on a hock. He went into the vet school. He had surgery. I got a bill for 2,800 some-odd dollars. I faxed the invoice to the insurance company. Within 30 days, I had my check for the full amount, which covered a colic, GastroGard, the whole nine yards.

Q So my question is: At least the time that you were dealing with Marc, you made contact with an insurance agent?
A Yes.

Q You secured some type of coverage for him, correct? You told him what the coverage was going to be?
A Yes.

Q You secured an insurance exam?
A Yes.

Q Did you pick a price that the insurance policy was going to have to be in the amount of?
A It can only be in the amount of the purchase price at the start of the policy. You can increase their value with a show record.

Q And did you talk to the agent at all about how much major medical was going to be covered or what limits?
A No. That's outlined in the policy that he received, that was mailed directly to him.

Q I understand that. But at the time that you buy insurance, you don't have a policy. You know that, right?
A Yes.

Q When you secured the policy for him, when you called and made these arrangements, did they tell you there's only X amount of money that's going to be covered?
A No. And the only -- whatever I told him was what -- I answered all the questions he asked me. Because he obviously wouldn't have signed it and been paying for the insurance up to that point. My understanding was -- my understanding was that when the horse went into the clinic -- because the agent works at the clinic that the horse went to. She advised me what to apply to his insurance and what not to. That the only reason the horse went to the clinic was because the nuclear scintigraphy was covered by his insurance.

Q Who is that agent?
A Mickey Stokes.

Q So Mickey advised you what you should be applying to insurance and what you shouldn't?
A Yes.

Q Did she ever tell you there was a maximum amount to be covered?
A No. Is there?

Q Yes.
A See, that's news to me. Like I said, I gave Marc my personal experience with insurance.

Q I understand. But my question to you is: You didn't have any discussion with him, that you're buying horses for $75,000, and if they get hurt, the most that the major medical is going to cover is 75,000 or $10,000?
A No. Because I know horses that have had surgery that were at clinics for months and all of that was covered by insurance. I knew a horse that had foot receptive, that was kept at New Bolton Center for two years, and it was all covered by his insurance.

Q Now, did you ever have -- but you don't know if that was loss of use or anything?
A It was not loss of use. Because I handled those policies for those people. That was part of my management position.

Q So at least you -- there were policies somewhere out there. Do you remember who that insurance company was?
A I think it was through Taylor Harris. I think it was Great American. Now, this was five years ago, but I would think that things got better, not worse.

Q Well, you weren't the person who submitted the bills and received the money back, correct?
A I submitted the bills, but I did not receive the money. The money went to Marc.

Q I threw you a monkey wrench, and I didn't mean to did that. The horses you were dealing with back at the time with Great American.
A Correct. I did not submit the bills or the policy. I had no other interaction other than getting the deal set up and making sure that I was privy to the insurance that the horses were covered while they were injured.

Q Do you remember the names of those horses?
A Rainbow Bridge was one. He was the one at New Bolton Center for years. Goodnight Moon was another one. He had three colic surgeries.

Q How do you know that all their expenses were covered?
A The people told me that. But why would they lie? Usually, if they're going to lie, they're going to say, I didn't get paid at all. They wouldn't have lied and said, It was better than health insurance. We didn't have to fight about anything.

Q And that's the experience you related to Mr. Buck?
A Yes. I also related to him that I had one die seven days after I bought it. Never even saw the horse the whole time I owned it. Did not even have the insurance paperwork in to the office yet. But because we had made the phone call, the horse was legally bound. And within about 30 to 45 days, I had my check for the whole purchase price of the horse.

Q What other risks did you explain to Mr. Buck with respect to -- I mean, you knew he didn't know anything about horses. So what risks did you tell him before getting involved in the horse business?
A I always tell people, If you own horses long enough, sooner or later one of them is going to get hurt. It's just the luck of the draw, because they're horses. But generally speaking, if you can be patient, you can ride it out. That it's very rare that they have a life-altering kind of injury and/or people try to make right on their deals.

Q Any other risks of the investment that you talked to him about?
A Yeah. Death, injury. Any of that stuff. It's a high-risk investment. The time frame is a risk, because you're dealing with people. It's sales. You can't push people. Sometimes you have to nurse things along. It's like selling cars. People may fly in there and want to buy something and then not show up for two more weeks. That's just part of the business.

Q Did you ever discuss with him, in e-mails or otherwise, the turnaround time on the sale of Flemmingh? 30 days? 60 days? 90 days?
A Yes. You will see in the spreadsheet that was given to him, before we entered into these agreements, that there was six months allocated to both horses. I try to always give worst-case scenario. I always give average scenario, which is three to four months. I also give best-case scenario, which I have sold one in two days, right out of quarantine. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen. I let Mr. Buck know that we had customers that were actively looking. And especially Flemmingh, because he was so nice. I felt like he could probably get done in the first 30 days. He then was immediately unsound with his foot, standing on the toe clip, and that voided out the 30 days pretty much like right there. The customers from Louisiana actually really liked the horse and continued to call to pursue the horse, I believe, I was told through the agent, but, you know, until -- you might as well not show them if they're unsound. It's just poor character. You might as well wait.

Q Okay. Did you ever have an entity known as Pinested Horse Sales or was that just an entity of something you were thinking of having?
A Something I was thinking of having.

Q Is this the business plan that you e-mailed to Mr. Buck?
A Yes.

Q Okay. And that was January of '06, is that correct?
A Yes.

Q And have you provided that business plan to other potential investors?
A If they requested one, I'm sure I did.

Q Now, on the spreadsheets -- you said you sent a bunch of spreadsheets to Mr. Newman -- I'm sorry -- Mr. Buck. Now -- and one of them is a little small, but it's in bigger print. Take a look at those and tell me if that's the spreadsheets that you sent to him.
A Yes. But there's, of course, another sheet that you don't have here that outlines Flemmingh and Silco specifically.

Q And you didn't bring that?
A No. But I'll get it to you by next Monday.

Q It's one of the things I had requested.
A Yeah. And it -- I mean, literally, I went back and double-checked to make sure, when this all came up -- I said, "Marc, did you not read the paperwork that I sent to you before you even came and met with me in person?" I mean, it is spelled out. And my expenses -- I think if you checked, my expenses are less than what is predicted on those sheets, pretty much religiously.

Q And then you're going to give me next week --
A Yes.

Q -- the spreadsheet as it relates to Flemmingh and Silco. Now, the remainder of the documents here -- I'm not going to go through them. I mean, obviously, you didn't bring anything with you. So if you would be kind enough to go through the list. And what you can do is just let me know either you have them or you don't. And then we'll -- next week, we'll go by the numbers. You'll tell me, I do not have this, you know, and then we'll -- .
A I'll print out the list. And I will check off what I have and bring it and cross out what I don't have. That way it will be very black and white.

Q Okay. Now, as it relates to Flemmingh, you said he was pretty much having issues -- I think I saw invoices where you had the vets coming out to visit with him fairly close to the purchase, is that correct?
A The first time that he got tried and actually physically limped during the trial, I called Dr. Griffith pretty much immediately and said, "Can you please come look at this horse. He's pulled the shoe off," so on and so forth, "stood on the toe clip. We've been soaking his foot for at least two weeks. He's getting better slowly. He does still take some questionable steps. I rode him this morning." This is probably a verbatim conversation I had with. "I rode him this morning. He was fine. We brought him back out this afternoon to get tried and he limped horribly. Can you please come look at the horse." He came and looked at the horse. He opted to inject his front feet and front ankles, and made absolutely no improvement.

When he wanted to follow up on the care of the horse, I opted to get a second opinion from someone else. I felt like that was -- I thought we were short-changed slightly on our evaluation. It was 7:30 at night and maybe we -- maybe he didn't give it a thorough exam to then inject its feet and ankles and have no positive response whatsoever. That's when Palm Beach Equine got involved.

Q Didn't Dr. Scott come and see the horse?
A Yeah. Dr. Scott came and saw the horse, but he didn't come specifically for that horse. He was coming out for chiropractic reasons for other horses. But, yes, he did look at the horse.

Q And what was his opinion or --
A He thought the horse looked weak behind. He didn't think it looked right front at all. So he opted to treat the horse with some estrone and ten days of trotting twice a day.

Q And I take it you did that work?
A Oh, yes. Absolutely. I'm very diligent that way.

Q And he felt he was weak behind?
A Yes. Then we continued to ride the horse. And he would change slightly on a daily basis. One day he would take ten bad steps. One day he would take bad steps going one direction but not the other. Things like if you changed the saddle, he would be different. So I called in Palm Beach Equine, because Dr. Scott primarily is a chiropractor. He does do some veterinary medicine, but primarily his area of expertise is chiropractic. I felt like the stifles were for sure getting better, but we were still unsound. So I called in Palm Beach Equine. I immediately -- I had Bill Stanton look at the horse. He said, "Right front." I had been saying right front the whole time. The horse pulled the shoe off and stood on its shoe and its foot bled. It's obvious that that hurt.

When Palm Beach Equine came, we blocked his foot; got no result. Blocked his ankle; got no result. Blocked his suspensory; got no result. We went all the way up the leg; got no result. Still the same lameness. We changed the saddle and we made an improvement. Not a hundred percent, but close. She came that afternoon. She x-rayed his back. His vertebrae are very close together. She opted to inject his back. A week later she came back for evaluation. We were better, but still not a hundred percent. Every little thing we did tweaked him and made improvement, but nothing really made him a hundred percent. Because the horse was insured, she suggested doing the nuclear scintigraphy. The nuclear scintigraphy didn't show much. It showed a little bit in his back, some questionable things in his neck, but nothing conclusive. We shock-waved his back while we were there. The horse had an adverse reaction to that. We treated him for his hind end. We treated him with neurologic medicine. Because he was so weak behind, thought maybe he had EPM.

Q Did the testing ever show that he had EPM?
A Yeah. They called in a specialist, because for the insurance we had to. I think Dr. Miller came in and evaluated the horse. And again, it was inconclusive. But there was enough symptoms of possibly having it, that she suggested to treat the horse. Therefore, he was on the Marquis, which again, was applied to his insurance. If they didn't pay it, we would probably have some issues with that, because that was -- we went through that process specifically for the insurance company, which I was --

Q Did Dr. --
A I was told, a lot of what we did was -- we had to go through these steps for the insurance company.

Q Okay.
A The horse --

Q And who told you that? I'm sorry. I just want to make sure.
A I'd have to say probably Dr. Schneider.

Q Okay.
A Maybe Mickey. I do feel like they acted in our best interest and that they were trying to cover all the bases to make the horse sound. When I left Palm Beach Equine, the horse came home, recouped for several days. We shocked-waved his back again. They recommended three treatments. We only did two, because he had a hard time with the shock wave. It was hard on him. Dr. Schneider wanted to -- I think his back was injected a second time at some point. She wanted to do it a third time. I said, "Absolutely not. We have spent almost $10,000 with you and you have not fixed the horse. At some point we need to stop. You need to give me something more conclusive as to why this horse is doing this before we continue." We injected his shoulder. We did various things. Again, all of it made slight improvements, but nothing a hundred percent.

Q Okay.
A A farrier that I have had tremendous success with got in a fight with Dr. Scott the day that he was there evaluating the horses and quit.

Q And why did they get in a fight?
A Over another horse. It had nothing to do with that horse. It was over Travis. Dr. Scott thought it should be shod a different way, blah, blah, blah. Jeff had been working for me for three years, since 2003. That was the first time he had quit, so to speak. I begged and pleaded for him to come back. Finally, we resolved some of the issues. He realized I wasn't upset with him. I didn't really side with Dr. Scott. Right around Thanksgiving, he did shod the horse for the first time. He put an aluminum plate or aluminum pad on the horse. Not a hospital plate, but an aluminum pad. And the horse, within 20 minutes of getting shod, was a hundred percent.

Q Okay. Did he tell you why that aluminum plate was assisting the horse?
A He said it could be a couple different things. It could be the fact that his foot was no longer touching the ground where he stood on the toe clip. Obviously -- maybe he needed some more support or maybe not have the sand and things irritate it and have the concussion of expanding and contracting on the ground. He said it could be various things. That we would have to wait and see.

Q Okay.
A That was the first time the horse was truly a hundred percent.

Q And what month was that?
A That was in November. Okay. And all this time we've been working him, but working him lightly. You know, we would go out and trot for ten minutes. Enough to keep him exercised and fit, sort of, but not hurt 20 him.

Q So from the time that Dr. Griffith came on --
A September 17th or something.

Q I have August 23rd when he started treating the horse --
A For --

Q -- for the lameness issues.
A Okay.

Q From that point, until November, he wasn't able to be shown to people because he was sore?
A Yes. And, you know, we'd take him out and jog him, because in hand, he didn't look -- oh, I love that one. Please call me as soon as he's better. We just kept telling people, he stood on his toe clip -- he pulled his shoe off, stood on the toe clip, his foot has not grown out enough, we'll call you when he's a hundred percent. There's no point in jumping him if he's not a hundred percent. When we started back jumping him, there were some touch-and-go days. It was not instant gratification, which would have made the world perfect. But it just doesn't work that way with horses. And, unfortunately, that's what Mr. Buck was seeking, was instant gratification to make it better, which I was too. I mean, we had an easy sale. It could have been done.

Q Now, I think you recognize that the fact that a horse is wearing aluminum plates would certainly raise some suspicion --
A And I told him that.

Q Let me finish. The fact that a horse is wearing aluminum plates would certainly raise some suspicions amongst potential purchasers because they would obviously know that some investigation had been done to try to figure out what had been wrong with the horse, is that correct?
A Exactly. I told Mr. Buck when he had the aluminum pads on it would be at least 30 days before I felt like we should show the horse to anybody, and that would be pending the pads coming off. That it raises a huge red flag, hello, hello, look at me, my foot is hurt. And that it was in the best interest of the horse. Not to mention, the horse was not -- really not fit and truly in jumping condition to go and get tried immediately. That that was -- it's like -- he's an athlete. It's like going to the gym. You don't go from being on sabbatical to lifting 150 pounds doing three sets of 15, day one.

Q You would agree that at some point in November, Mr. Buck had recognized that you-all were zero for two in the potential horses with you, correct?
A Yes. We discussed that.

Q Okay. Now, up until the horse left your facility, he was still in those aluminum plates, correct?
A Correct.

Q So he had had two or three shoeings?
A Just one other one. He was shod right after Thanksgiving and then again New Year's Eve.

Q Now, if the horse needs these aluminum plates for the rest of his life, that's it, never can go back, you would agree that the value of that horse is substantially less, given the appearance of some potential special shoeing in order to keep him sound?
A Not pending a show record, no. If the horse was deemed totally usable, there's plenty of people that 150,000 is not enough money for that horse; that that horse could be much more valuable than that. And they may see that as a bargain because he's got these fancy shoes on. And it's not been deemed that he needs those shoes for the rest of his life. My farrier thought that maybe one or two more shoeings and he would be out of them. But time will tell. There was no way -- I don't have a crystal ball.

Q You don't know, as you sit here today, because you haven't had the horse in your care since at least January 12th?
A Correct.

Q But prior to that, when you went to Europe, correct?
A The horse was in the same care that he had been in for the five months prior, six months prior. The same people were taking care of him, riding him.

Q You haven't seen the horse since you went to Europe so you wouldn't know?
A Correct.

Q Now, how are you going to sell Flemmingh for Mr. Buck with the knowledge that he had had all this veterinary care at Palm Beach Equine?
A Because none of that care was actually deemed to be part of his issue. They never fixed him. The only thing that fixed him was the, hello, one thing that I said from day one, his right front foot where he pulled the shoe off and stepped on the toe clip. The horse -- the nuclear scintigraphy showed nothing. Ultrasound showed nothing. We found nothing conclusive, only things that we could try to improve the situation. Therefore, I don't feel like his medical history was relevant at all. It's not like Silco where there's something specific. With Flemmingh, there was nothing. They kept searching. The only thing that fixed him was truly reshoeing him properly.

Q And did you ever inquire with them or any vet as to why front foot x-rays were not being done, if that's where he stepped on the clip and needed to investigate that?
A Because it would have shown up in the nuclear scintigraphy.

Q You believe it would have shown up?
A That's what I was told. That was my first experience with the nuclear scintigraphy. But that's what I was told. That is part of why the x-rays were then sent to them.

Q Do you even know if there was foot x-rays?
A Yes.

Q How do you know that?
A Kim told me she reviewed the x-rays and they were all fine. And she would have said, hello, they're were no foot x-rays, what were you thinking. I believe there were 20 or so x-rays of the horse.

Q So you felt that, given the history of the horse, as far as the investigations they did, that at the end of the day they were all for naught?
A I think they were trying very hard. What was inconclusive -- and I was there with my own eyes. And I did not go to vet school, but you would think that if it truly was just his foot, that when we blocked his foot that he should be sound. And when we blocked his foot, he was unsound. So that led to the other things. However, when he got reshod, I was also standing there. I watched him get reshod. I took him out. I put him on the longe line. He looked the best he had ever looked since the day he pulled the shoe off. And I got on and rode him and he felt the best he had felt since the day he pulled the shoe off. Therefore, I would have to assume it was just his foot.

Q Did the blacksmith ever tell you what he could have done to hurt his foot when he pulled that shoe?
A Yeah. We discussed it. I mean, there could be soft tissue injury. There could be a lot of things. Most of it was fairly unlikely, given that the horse pulled the shoe off and stood on the toe clip. I have consulted with Bill Stanton on the matter, and he informed me he worked for Dr. Steel for 20 years and that he had a horse that had an abscess that took a year to grow out and not to be totally shocked if it took a while. It was depressing to hear, but information that proved to be somewhat valid.

Q Have you had any issues with Travis or Preston, as far as lamenesses? I mean, I see Travis's name on some of these vet bills. Have --
A Not lameness. He has some skin disorders. He had a hard time adjusting to the weather in Wellington, but is doing better.

Q All right. I think --
A I don't believe -- I've never had a bill for Preston.

Q MS. NAVIN: I think this is a good breaking point for next week. What we will do is reconvene next week, and we'll continue on with -- I think we have probably about another three hours. I need for you to look at that list, bring it with you, what you have. I need for you to attempt to contact Dr. Barber --
A